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Author Topic: BMFA Scale rule changes  (Read 1062 times)
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kkphantom
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« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2020, 05:07:55 PM »

I'm not likely to enter a competition now after the May Nats nonsense so it doesn't really concern me that much but I'm driven to wonder whether there's just a load of rule tampering for tampering's sake.
Indoor kit scale doesn't have a BOM rule....and there was a suggestion that rules were changed after an extensive "survey". Can we see a show of hands of those who were surveyed?
Gary
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billdennis747
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2020, 05:20:22 PM »

Over on Facebook, kkphantom has just pointed out that unlike in the new Intermediate class (and other indoor scale classes) the indoor Open Rubber flights are apparently not to be judged on quality of landing. Is this really right I wonder, or is it just an accidental omission?
Looks like a mistake to me - swapped landing for transition.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2020, 03:35:36 AM »

Indoor kit scale doesn't have a BOM rule....and there was a suggestion that rules were changed after an extensive "survey". Can we see a show of hands of those who were surveyed?
Gary
Gary, the 'BOM' rule applies to all FF scale classes by default  (rule 6.1.1.3 ?)except the Flying Only classes and a couple of RC classes, I think. Thus the outdoor FO classes  allow 'bought' models in FF (if anyone wants to buy one of my crappy models to have the slight chance of winning a laminated certificate, prices are very competitive).
I have yet to find anyone who was 'surveyed'.
Bill
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kkphantom
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« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2020, 04:58:49 AM »

In kit scale, under 'documentation', there is the line..
No declaration as to compliance with the builder of the model requirement is required from the competitor. I think this could be interpreted as no BOM rule in this class. It just seemed strange to me that that line was even put in there...
Gary
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RalphS
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« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2020, 05:23:43 AM »

What don't they like about mylar covering?    Luddites!
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billdennis747
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« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2020, 05:40:52 AM »

In kit scale, under 'documentation', there is the line..
No declaration as to compliance with the builder of the model requirement is required from the competitor. I think this could be interpreted as no BOM rule in this class. It just seemed strange to me that that line was even put in there...
Gary
Gary, I hadn't seen that and have no idea what it means. It's a modification of the previous rule which says 'No declaration as to compliance is required' and I don't know what that means either. It seems to say 'you must build your own model because of rule 6.1.1.3 but we won't check so do what you like.'
It's the gift that keeps on giving.
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2020, 07:16:00 AM »

What don't they like about mylar covering?    Luddites!

I thought this myself ... even though they make a point of embracing modern materials in another sentence.
Who will be the first to build a 'cellex' (spelling? .... wrong word?!) covered peanut Rumpler?!
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billdennis747
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« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2020, 07:32:22 AM »

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I just noticed that competitors now have to download and bring their own entry forms!
This seems to be the most ridiculous penny pinching change . I will try to remember to print several spare copies and bring them with me.
I suspect it is not about penny pinching Chris - more likely it's because last year they forgot to bring any to the Nats and were panic-printing on the morning, so shift the onus on to the entrant.
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TheLurker
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« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2020, 11:08:59 AM »

What don't they like about mylar covering?    Luddites!
Couple of possible reasons occur to me; first is that for kit scale at least, the kits came with tissue so it could be that the rule is meant to tally with the "power source as plan" change although if it is, it would have been far clearer to say, "Covering material as per the kit".  The other (and this is a wild guess 'cos I've never used anything but tissue) is that perhaps it's easier to get a wrinkle free finish with Mylar than tissue so it's a test of execution / workmanship?
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RalphS
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« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2020, 11:42:04 AM »

What don't they like about mylar covering?    Luddites!
Couple of possible reasons occur to me; first is that for kit scale at least, the kits came with tissue so it could be that the rule is meant to tally with the "power source as plan" change although if it is, it would have been far clearer to say, "Covering material as per the kit".  The other (and this is a wild guess 'cos I've never used anything but tissue) is that perhaps it's easier to get a wrinkle free finish with Mylar than tissue so it's a test of execution / workmanship?

Agree about Kit Scale but see the rules p118 for Peanut (and later for Pistachio).  No mylar here also - nothing to do with what was/is in the kit.
As to "easier", there are some people on this site who would disagree.  The only reason that I use it is because it doesn't age and doesn't split, is lighter and can give a nice painted finish if done well.  Hope to fly some mylar covered models at Manchester Velodrome tomorrow Grin
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TheLurker
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« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2020, 11:48:04 AM »

Quote from: RalphS
... is lighter...
Ah.  Perhaps that's why then?  Although... given that you're allowed to use your own specially selected helium filled wood even for kit scale...  hmmm... no, I can't see it.  I think I shall have to concede that your original assessment of the situation, "Luddites", is probably the correct one.  Smiley
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kkphantom
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« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2020, 12:41:37 PM »

....or a cellon covered eindekker....
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: BMFA Scale rule changes
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Squirrelnet
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« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2020, 02:12:16 PM »

The rule does say. ' ...microfilms or mylar films for the overlaid covering is not permitted except where the subject aircraft itself uses that form of covering

As most modern fabric covered aircraft are actually covered in a synthetic covering similar to a heavy version of model covering films that should be fine then Huh ?

or  can form of covering be taken to mean a solid silver coloured surface in the case of a WW2 fighter in which case silvered Mylar should be fine ? Huh



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RalphS
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« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2020, 03:01:09 PM »

Well spotted Russ. Is mylar ruled out on the outdoor classes?  I understood that Ivan Taylor's models were mylar covered and Squirrelnet uses tissue over mylar.  Looks like new models for this year. Grin

I was thinking that if JOD was still around he would be enjoying himself asking searching questions arising from the new rules. 

Perhaps people should carve their own props.  That is on most of the kit scale plans.
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Squirrelnet
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« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2020, 03:26:41 PM »

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I understood that Ivan Taylor's models were mylar covered and Squirrelnet uses tissue over mylar.  Looks like new models for this year. Grin

 It seems from my reading of the rules that the covering limitation only applies to Peanut and Pistachio Classes.

There is some irony though, in the fact that tissue over mylar is allowed in the Eddie Riding comp, primarily a vintage scale comp but not it the 21st Century Peanut and Pistachio Classes

If Mylar is outlawed in outdoor scale I have a very simple fix for the Hawker Tomtit... don't bother with the comps and fly for fun :-) That is after all why I started building FF Scale models .... for my own enjoyment, both the building process and that moment as you release the model on a successful flight.  This rule changing rubbish is becoming a bit of a turn off  Huh
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2020, 04:00:55 PM »

... don't bother with the comps and fly for fun :-) That is after all why I started building FF Scale models .... for my own enjoyment, both the building process and that moment as you release the model on a successful flight.  This rule changing rubbish is becoming a bit of a turn off  Huh

I agree that you don’t need comps to have fun, but the comps were still part of the fun for me. It’s not just the competitive aspect, it’s the way it makes a bit of an occasion of the flying and the way people watch each other’s flights. Also, some kind of scoring occasionally does kind of give you something to aim for.

As far as the various 2020 rule controversies, errors or discrepancies go, I suppose someone should be emailing the STC. We’ve been told many times that discussing things on here will have no effect. And yet I find it very tempting just to wait and see if any of those discrepancies result in an almighty results fiasco at one of this year’s competitions. Does that make me a bad person?  Smiley
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2020, 04:20:54 PM »

I know I'm probably in the minority in thinking about my builds from years out .... but in the case of peanut and pistachio I have.
Like Chris says, the rule changes have become off-putting in some ways .... and yet interesting in others (the intermediate class for example)
I think the new rules should have been released this year, but not implemented until next year? This way, we would be more familiar when the time came ... and some of the questions answered, bugs ironed out.
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Squirrelnet
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« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2020, 05:05:57 PM »

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it’s the way it makes a bit of an occasion of the flying and the way people watch each other’s flights.

I can't agree more Pete, that's the attraction in a nutshell.

The competition adds another level to throwing the model around on your own in a field and that's the bit I'm keen to hold onto. I hope our fellow flyers see the same benefits regardless of the STC's slightly nutty (in my opinion) rule changes and continue to come out and fly and enjoy the benefits of competitive flying, for they still outweigh the negatives these rules changes, and the way they have been implemented have given.

FF Scale is a pretty unique form of competition lets not chuck it away over some technicalities, at risk of cliche, it's better than that !

After the storm they have created I'm not holding my breath, I hope I'm wrong

I completely agree with Russ's comment about announcing the change and implementing it the following year, some of us (me) take a while to produce a model
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DavidJP
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« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2020, 05:07:46 AM »

Oh dear things do seem to have gone a bit wrong for free flight scale - is some bearing a grudge?  I always thought that the rules were particularly well thought out and had been tried and tested and everyone seemed happy.  Yes by all means review and update as needs be but with deliberation.  It is a great shame and the “group” does not deserve it. 
I am surprised someone in the hierarchy of Council has not stepped in. 

Could not some one direct that in the circumstances the implementation of the new rules be postponed for at least a year so a review can take place and meanwhile the old ones apply.  But is there their going to the FF Scale events this year?

Perhaps we need some Boris style leadership?

I am sure of course things will work out because they usually do but it is all down to fortitude.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2020, 08:27:02 AM »

If gyros are to be allowed in outdoor FF comps, why not indoor?
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billdennis747
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« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2020, 10:29:05 AM »

...and if a 200g outdoor electric model needs a radio 'emergency' cutout, why not a 250g indoor model in a crowded hall?
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TheLurker
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« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2020, 11:34:33 AM »

Quote from: billdennis747
...and if a 200g outdoor electric model needs a radio 'emergency' cutout, why not a 250g indoor model in a crowded hall?
Umm, ... now this is only a guess*, but....perhaps because an indoor meet is likely to be attended by the "in-crowd" only; a group that by and large knows that propellers can bite and bite hard whereas an outdoor model might disappear into the wild blue yonder and be picked up by some unsuspecting "civilian" and quite possibly a child?   Bad press all round if little Jenny gets a chunk taken out of a finger or hand when she picks up an escaped model whereas there's only likely to be a great deal of mocking laughter and precious little sympathy directed at any aeromodeller who gets bitten because the assumption is that he or she really should know better. 


*I'm going to suggest a new parlour game.  Given a changed rule you must invent a plausible reason for that rule and be able to convince the other players that your explanation is the real reason for the change.
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