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Author Topic: Looking for Fairchild F.24 C8 drawings  (Read 981 times)
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billdennis747
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2020, 04:52:11 AM »

Do we know if the wings are the same as the usual 24? In which case a flying shot of the other one for just the wingtip would suffice.
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2020, 06:22:37 AM »

I don't know. The overall wingspan is slightly less than the usual F24, but that could be due to a narrower fuselage. A better bet might be to find an in-air shot of one of the Fairchild 24 C8As that are still flying, like this one. The C8A is virtually the same aircraft I think, but with a radial (Warner) engine.
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Prosper
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2020, 06:31:50 AM »

Hi Pete, the lens distortion that Chris mentions usually (?always?) cheats you out of some fuselage length, which is bad not just for scale-osity but because your tail will have less leverage. You have the wing chord and the overall length from Aero Digest. One or both of your side-on piccies shows the wing clearly, so if you measure the photo wing chord as near to the fuselage as you can, then you have the scale of the photo; the ratio of your measured wing chord to the reported wing chord. You can then divide the reported overall length by that scale to get a number which should be the length of the photo fuselage. If the photo fuselage is shorter then you're being swizzled by the camera - but anyway you know how long the fus. should be, and it's now a question of figgering out how much of your extra length to add at the nose and how much at the tail.

A very clumsy explanation I know - it's much easier to do than to explain. Lemme know if clarification needed.

Stephen.
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2020, 06:58:20 AM »

No, that makes sense: you’re saying use the wing chord as a measuring stick I think. I’m actually spoilt for choice for side views, with the colour ones plus these older b/w shots. Further away is better I believe.
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Prosper
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2020, 07:05:17 AM »

Yes! I feel a bit silly writing a short story when five words, "chord as a measuring stick", do the job Cheesy.
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2020, 07:20:53 AM »

Not at all- I wouldn’t have understood to take the chord measure from the side photo if you’d not explained properly. Just found another side view...
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billdennis747
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2020, 08:05:50 AM »

This interests me. It must be possible mathematically to work out the distortion of length, especially if you have some idea of distance from subject. What about:
a long piece of paper with the side view (enlarged) at one end
a long line to a scale matching distance to subject, starting at mid chord on your latest example
draw an arc from 'the photographer' to the photo, as far as the tail
'bend' the photo around the arc and mark it
compare the length on the arc with the photo to determine if the stretch is significant

That's probably the most incoherent rubbish I've ever come up with but it makes sense to me!
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Indoorflyer
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2020, 08:08:51 AM »

Do we know if the wings are the same as the usual 24?  

Pete's subject has nearly full span ailerons with large mass balances, and no flaps.

Galloway also did a 22 and a later 24 all to the same scale. Might be worth a look at those plans (in HPA gallery). I suspect the 22  with its long ailerons is most closely related to 13191.

The overhead view (seen in the 360 deg virtual tour) has a centerline "strip" that is not depicted on the FSI plan.

I would question the shape of the root rib on the FSI plan.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 08:21:15 AM by Indoorflyer » Logged
Squirrelnet
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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2020, 09:45:03 AM »

This interests me. It must be possible mathematically to work out the distortion of length, especially if you have some idea of distance from subject. What about:
a long piece of paper with the side view (enlarged) at one end
a long line to a scale matching distance to subject, starting at mid chord on your latest example
draw an arc from 'the photographer' to the photo, as far as the tail
'bend' the photo around the arc and mark it
compare the length on the arc with the photo to determine if the stretch is significant

That's probably the most incoherent rubbish I've ever come up with but it makes sense to me!

I think the problem is that the lens actually distorts the image with an increasing effect towards the edges rather just the perspective effect I think you are describing ?

As Pete says the further away the camera is from the subject the better in terms of the perspective effect and indeed lens barrel distortion. Some of the most accurate images maybe the original works B&W photos are they are likely to have been taken with a medium format 4x5 camera with a standard lens from slightly further away than I've seen in a lot of the more modern hanger shots
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billdennis747
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« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2020, 09:57:46 AM »

Oh well Pete; you need to get a tape measure and a short holiday in the US!
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2020, 11:34:51 AM »

Oh well Pete; you need to get a tape measure and a short holiday in the US!
Maybe, although I’m tending more towards the slightly tweak the original drawing and then soddit-that’ll-do end of the spectrum.
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Bryanair
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« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2020, 11:35:46 AM »

Here you go Pete.  Your Fairchild is at Pioneer Airport which is located at Oshkosh.  You need to book July 20-26!

https://www.eaa.org/en/airventure
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Indoorflyer
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« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2020, 01:46:03 PM »

Tried to take some photos of the 3 page article in "U.S. Civil Aircraft" Vol.5 (by Joseph Juptner) pertaining to ATC #475, "Fairchild 24, Model C-8" .  The article is interesting, and has reasonably good quality photos.  Perhaps these, especially in higher res versions will help.  Can email to you if desired.
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Indoorflyer
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« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2020, 02:31:31 PM »

The Juptner books are a 9-volume series that covered all "ATC" numbers that were assigned by the CAA.  Volume 9 has a nice summary on the inside flap.  Attached is the master listing for "Fairchild", indicating volume and page number for the appropriate ATC# article/description
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2020, 02:42:48 PM »

Indoorflyer, all those photos are great! I've PM'd you my email so if you can email me scans that would be brilliant! I may have to order the book though. Only about £10 inc. postage I find.
The photo at the bottom of p216 sums up what I love about this little aircraft. "Perky" is the word I think. And the perfect front view is just what I need too.
Many thanks.
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Indoorflyer
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« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2020, 03:52:50 PM »

You're welcome Pete. Images sent.  I noticed the ailerons shown in this article are unlike NC13191's.  Maybe the balanced ailerons were an upgrade that came towards the end of the short production run for this model.
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2020, 04:15:31 PM »

Thanks for sending the images, Indoorflyer. Much appreciated!
The unbalanced ailerons would be simpler to depict on a model, but I doubt I'd get good colour evidence for the one in your book, so I'll probably stick with N13191.
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2020, 05:23:20 PM »

Well I couldn't resist- I ordered the Juptner book. Two of the photos are the same as the the ones with the Aero Digest drawing, but the other two are new so that gives four nice clear shots of this particular aircaft (NC12661) and the FSI plan is also based on this example.  It's just a pity we don't know what colour it was. (There are actually these helpful colour notes on the plan, but as 'evidence' I doubt they'd impress your average BMFA static judge all that much!)
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2020, 06:36:15 AM »

Another day another side view....
and some good information too. January 1985 issue of Sport Aviation (EAA Magazine), courtesy of Indoorflyer. Thank you for this, IF!
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Squirrelnet
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« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2020, 12:28:49 PM »

That's a good shot.

Laying the drawing on top though reveals a similar problems with the drawing to the first image . I tried to line up the wing root and the centre line of the fuselage, I've only scaled the drawing I haven't distorted it.  It does look like the tail is not right on the drawing, the nose seems even longer on this photo
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Indoorflyer
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« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2020, 12:47:46 PM »

Another day another side view....
and some good information too. January 1985 issue of Sport Aviation (EAA Magazine), courtesy of Indoorflyer. Thank you for this, IF!


You're welcome, Pete!
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Indoorflyer
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« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2020, 01:22:01 PM »

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RolandD6
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« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2020, 04:58:10 PM »

Going on what was written in the January 1985 issue of Sport Aviation, there is a very good chance that the F-24 C-8 used as many components of the existing F-22 C-7 as was practical. The C-8 was developed during the depression so keeping costs down would have been a key factor. Waco developed their first cabin model around the same time and it used as much as was practical from the existing F-2 open cockpit models.

The drawing below may be of some use. It came from one of the U.S. Year Books, cannot remember which one. You will find most of the year books here:

https://www.aia-aerospace.org/research-center/history/

Paul
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2020, 05:25:28 PM »

That's great, Paul! It's from the 1934 edition, page 308. Even better though, two pages later....
another three view of the 24 C8!  Actually it's the C8A which, as Mark B already established, is the radial engined version, but still a very good find.
Thanks very much!
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2020, 05:20:01 PM »

Despite the innaccuracies in the side view drawing, in an ideal world I'd still quite like to use the FSI plan to build from, so was wondering if the fudging needed to get the outlines right would make it still worth using, or if a complete scratch build beckons.
I'm still not sure but here then is an outline of the side view photo (in red) superimposed over the FSI plan. I tried to use wing chord as the scaling factor again. It confirms what Chris and co have already suggested: I need a skinnier tailend, a deeper cabin and a slightly longer nose...
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