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Author Topic: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane  (Read 373 times)
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bgrove
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« on: January 08, 2020, 07:05:33 PM »

By posting this I'm committing to this build!!  I've been undecided and thinking I might do something easier..... but no.  I'm all in.

This is the Wanna Play II.  A highly modified Mong biplane flown by Tom Aberle which is the last 'rebuild' prior to selling the place to Patty Johnson who flew it as "Full Tilt Boogie".

I purchased plans for Full Tilt Boogie from Wendell Hosteller plans:  both the 35% scale , 61.5 inch span and a smaller 25 inch span which is about 15% scale.  I've scaled in down further to about a 16.5 inch span (which fits on 11x17 paper   Smiley).

I plan on using my micro RC gear using 4 channels:  elevator, rudder, ailerons and throttle.  I might skip the rudder control.

I'm still contemplating switching over to the 25 inch plans I have - I'm already experiencing issues with RC and my 16.5 version being small.  I've only built the stabilizer and I'm hitting issues with the short T-tail rudder and flexible pushrod up to the elevator.

Brad
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Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
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OZPAF
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2020, 07:10:40 PM »

I think I would put the limit at around 20" Brad. Apart from being less twitchy(technical term Smiley) - you can see them a lot longer if they are a bit larger. Also you have a better chance of fitting the gear and keeping the wing loading a bit more reasonable.

John
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Konrad
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2020, 09:01:59 PM »

I did a similar sized 4 channel RC convertion of a Dumas 17.5' P6-E Hawk. It is a thingy cat to fly. I think even at 16.5 inches you will have a larger wing than my Hawk.
Please, Please keep the rudder! I find that as the wing loading goes up I want more and more control options.
https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=11737.0

All the best,
Konrad

I too had issues with the my bowden tube to actuate the ailerons.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 09:48:59 PM by Konrad » Logged

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bgrove
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2020, 12:38:32 PM »

I've decided to build the larger 25 inch span version per the plans I purchased.  I'll save the 16.5 span plans for a free flight version of Full Tilt Boogie.

John, thanks the pushing me to make this decision.  I hope you are doing OK with all the wildfires happening in Australia. 

Konrad, thanks for in sights and sharing the link to your build.  I'm a visual person and the photos really help me.  How did you like the linear throw micro servos?  I have some of those, as well as standard configuration micro servos (rotary throw).  I'm worried the linear servos won't be fast enough.  Also, what did you cover your P6-E Hawk with? 

Brad
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2020, 01:31:48 PM »

The linear servo are more than fast enough. E-Flite uses them in many of their gyro equipped UMX planes. I had some issues with the power. I think they are available in sizes from 1.6 grams to 2.2 plus grams. For my ailerons I needed the larger one to work.

I too prefer rotary servos.

Covering is the now defunct Solarfilm So-lite. If I was to do it again I'd use "R.A. Microlite". Oracover light will also work but is a bit heavy.
https://www.homefly.com/products.asp?id=31&pg=1

For more general information take a look at this thread.
https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=12443.0

I like the "larger" 24" to 30" as a first start with these balsa micros.
https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=16387.0

As I don't know what brand/system you use, this is where I get most of my micro radio gear.
https://alofthobbies.com

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2020, 06:07:49 PM »

G'day Brad. Glad you have decided to go a bit larger - it will definitely be more enjoyable.
As for the bush fires - I have 2 - to the North and the South. They are as close as I would like - about 10-12k but at present are under control. We should be ok I hope!
Don't believe all the crap being bandied around that it is not climate related and that's all I'll say about that.
Thanks and have a good day.

Cheers
John
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bgrove
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« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2020, 03:56:46 PM »

Konrad, thanks for the links.  I have to look around the web and see what my covering options are here in the states.  The last iron on covering I used was Monokote.

I have the lower wing almost built, at least the basic frame.  I was held up a bit on the fully symmetrical airfoil and how to build it.  I ended up finding an airfoil that was the correct size on an old set of plans for a "fan Trainer" I had built.  It's much easier to work with and I think will fly a bit easier as well.  I forgot that biplanes have twice the ribs!! ha.  The bottom wing I'm beefing up with sheer webbing out to the landing gear mounts/ailerons.  I'll build the top wing lighter.

Brad
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Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 04:19:20 PM by bgrove » Logged
Konrad
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2020, 09:55:05 AM »

The "new" coverings are much different than MoneyKoat. The new Monokote is horrible (LVOC compliant)!

At the very low Reynolds number of these model the airfoils actually look a little different than what we are use to seeing. Thin aft cambered are what seem to work best.

As counter intuitive as it seems weight is not all that critical. Structural stiffness is, if one hopes to hold any trim. Shear webs (1/32) to my way of thinking is weight well worth it. (I find lightening holes in wood ineffective and actually counter productive). And at these Reynolds numbers I like to see oversized ailerons.
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2020, 03:13:59 PM »

Bottom wing progress  Smiley  I have the ailerons cut and fitted.  I still need to bevel the front edge.  I've done an initial LE shaping and got things fairly smooth.  I do need to sand down the TE stock I'm using for the ailerons.

I pulled out a micro rotary servo last night and started to look at placement and mounting to utilize flexible pushrods.  I'm stumped!!  I need to have access to the server for replacement/adjustment etc. I would need a 'chin hatch' and that would only give limited access.  I'm thinking of trying two micro linear servos in the wings.  I think rotary servos would be too heavy.  Konrad..... what would you recommend?  

Tonight I'll work on prepping the ribs for the top wing as well as notching the LE and TE at rib locations.

What are everyone's thoughts on having the top wing/struts removable? vs fixed?

Brad
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 03:25:13 PM by bgrove » Logged
Konrad
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« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2020, 09:30:36 AM »

All good questions. I’ll have to see if I need to update my threads.

One piece aircraft. The use of the interplane struts really stiffens up the structure making it nice to trim. It also adds a lot of strength to resist that cartwheel.

For servo access I’m finding that just cutting into the iron on covering works well, followed with a nice patch. I do have a hatch for battery access. Push rods are 1mm to 1.5mm carbon with bent wire ends attached with heat shrink tubing. This still allows me to adjust their length by sliding the wire up and down the rod. Once the trim is set I put a drop of CA on the heat shrink to lock it in place. Some guys like the U bend to make adjustments(I don’t). Bowden tubes are made from CA capillary tubing and fine “beading wire” ( plastic coated cable from the craft store).

(Pages 2 & 3 of this build seem to cover a lot of the bowden tube issues)
https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=11737.25


These servos are more than up to the task. My P6-E is down to change over to dual linear aileron servos.
https://www.horizonhobby.com/helicopters/aircraft-servos/35-gram-ds35-digital-super-sub-micro-servo-eflrds35
https://www.horizonhobby.com/product/helicopters/spektrum-brand/aircraft-servos/spmsh2045l-29g-linear-long-throw-servo--130-s-spmsh2045l

All the best,
Konrad

P.S.
Love seeing the shear webs.
Wow, what are you using as pinned hinges at this small scale?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 09:52:27 AM by Konrad » Logged

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bgrove
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2020, 03:18:12 PM »

Thanks for  the insights Konrad.  Always helpful.  What motor size do you think I should build around?  I can't remember what I have, but I know I do have stash of motors to choose from.  I have a Park 450 (890 kv outrunner) with a 25 amp ESC that might fit the bill?  Let me know if you think I should go smaller or larger.

I got the upper wing mostly framed up.  I still need to add the shear web, center pylon mount bracing and shape it out.

Brad
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Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
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Konrad
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2020, 03:44:19 PM »

WOW, go smaller with this style of ship. I have a 42 inch Cessna 150 with a Park 250 on 3 cells and have way way too much power, almost unlimited vertical.

What kind of performance are you looking for from this model?
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bgrove
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2020, 03:58:54 PM »

Konrad:  I'm MUCH more of a builder than a flyer  Embarrassed This plane is way beyond my flying abilities, but it should be fast, but flyable.  I'll take a look at what other motors I have to choose from.  I may have a park 250.
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bgrove
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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2020, 02:50:22 PM »

Here are a couple shots of the wings.

And here are a couple of shots of my radio gear I will be using after removing them from other planes.  I'm going to go with the standard rotary servos - I'm just not comfortable with the micro servos for this size plane.  

Konrad, for motor I'm thinking of using a Firepower 300 w the Talon 25 ESC.  The 250's I have seem so small, the FP300 even looks small (see photo of it on the plans), but I'm more used to the physical size of gas motors.
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Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
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Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
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bgrove
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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2020, 03:01:55 PM »

Here is the fuselage after the weekends work.  There are lot's of things to figure out as I build.  The original plans are for a 6 foot span model which are scaled down to a 26 inch span model.  Many of the build techniques and materials specifications don't apply for the smaller size model.
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Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
Re: Wanna Play II: Formula One racing biplane
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Konrad
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« Reply #15 on: Today at 10:34:27 AM »

As this is looking like a scaled down "40 size" build rather that a stick and tissue type build your larger motor might be appropriate. It will ultimately come down to weight, both for the motor (balance) and AUP weight for performance. In the end I'd aim for 75 to 100 watts per pound.

I for one don't see much if any value in the use of lightening holes in wooden structure. I like to focus on grain direction With lightening holes much of the connecting structure ends up with grain perpendicular to the load path. Your structure does have some structure (formers) carrying this load.

Give this video a look to see what kind of performance can be had from the linear servo. Note the size of the control surfaces and the speed of the model.
https://www.horizonhobby.com/storefronts/e-flite-brand/umx-timber-bnf-basic-eflu3950

All the best,
Konrad
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