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Author Topic: Power for Super 60  (Read 277 times)
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whiskers
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« on: June 04, 2020, 04:45:43 AM »

Having got a bit of confidence with flying my Tomboy I'm now considering my Super 60. I have a nicely built, undamaged model (purchased for next to nowt second hand a couple of years ago). It was powered by an ASP 53, now removed! This was far too much according to an experienced chap who flew it once or twice with me watching. The plane just kept wanting to climb even with down elevator and minimal throttle.

I was going to look for a .25 or similar for it but realise that as I have a nice P.A.W. 19 R/C diesel that might do the trick. Will this engine be enough for it or should I source something a little bigger. Ben Buckle website recommends .25-.35.

I would be flying it in a gentle 'vintage' manner.
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BG
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2020, 04:59:49 AM »

I always loved an O.S. 4 stroke in these OT jobs... I think I was using an old OS 40 in a Quaker Flash ...flew like a dream.

BG
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F1B guy but its not my fault, Tony made me do it.
DHnut
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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2020, 05:11:03 AM »

Super 60's normally have a 2.5 to 5 cc diesel so your PAW should fit nicely. A lot will depend on the weight of the model.
Ricky
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DavidJP
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2020, 05:37:20 AM »

I go with Ricky - a chum of mine has an old '60 which flys very well on a clapped out Merco ......
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TimWescott
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2020, 11:21:07 AM »

Try it with the 19, with the first flight in the hands of someone who understands that some planes need to be flown off the ground.  Someone who just nails the throttle then yanks back on the stick after the model has rolled a foot is not a candidate. 

If it works -- great!  If it can't climb out of its own wake -- start shopping for a more powerful engine.

That looks like a really nice relaxed trainer.
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whiskers
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2020, 11:28:13 AM »

Thanks Guys.

Tim, that's what I've decided to do. There's nothing to be lost by fitting the P.A.W. and judging by opinions it'll probably be good for gentle vintage flying. The way the model has bee built swapping motors is straightforward.
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whiskers
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2020, 07:09:30 AM »

Well, things progress... The other day I decided to weigh the Super 60 because I felt it was a tad heavy to my mind. All up ready to go with batteries and a PAW 19 balanced on, it pulled my kitchen scales down to 4.25 pounds, or there about.

Deciding this would be a bit much for my PAW 19 I have shelved that engine for another project. I remembered I had bought an old OS Max-S .35 RC a while back that runs OK so I have installed that as I think it will give me a bit more 'margin''. I was going to fit a control line venturi to the OS but have not sourced one as yet. So it is now installed in my Super.

Not having much experience with RC models does anybody think I'm right to be concerned at the weight of my Super 60? It balances perfectly with the OS so will not need nose weight.
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Konrad
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2020, 10:32:17 AM »

What's a Super 60?
I flew 3.5 lb 500 square inch winged models on 0.19 cid glow engine of similare construction as your OS 35 (plain bearing baffle) engine.
To prove a point I flew a Carl Goldberg Eagle 63 (63" wing span with 710 Square inches of wing, 4.25 lbs) on a baffle glow 0.15cid engine at 6K feet altitude. Yes the Eagle, not the smaller Eaglet. I could do figure 8's mid-field. No loops but that wasn't the point. The key was to use rather flat pitched props.

So no, I don't think you should be concerned with weight, particularly if she flew with a 2.5cc (0.15 cid) diesel.

All the best,
Konrad


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Kurt
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2020, 10:53:51 AM »

Whiskers, the 3 ccm PAW is a top motor for the super 60, perhaps a bit on the high end, I have one in Germany mounted in an Old Timer called Ichabod with 1.6m wing span which is an american Pylon model. It goes off the ground very easily and flies great, so go for your PAW. If by chance you phone PAW give greetings to Tony!!!
Kurt
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TimWescott
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2020, 02:30:52 PM »

What's a Super 60?

Judging purely by the photo in the listing for the kit, it's a really nifty-looking RC Cabin monoplane, looks like a trainer/sport plane.

I'm not sure how one could built it out to 4 1/2 pounds -- use oak for that nice built-up fuselage, maybe.
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ffkiwi
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2020, 03:50:31 PM »

What's a Super 60?
I flew 3.5 lb 500 square inch winged models on 0.19 cid glow engine of similare construction as your OS 35 (plain bearing baffle) engine.
To prove a point I flew a Carl Goldberg Eagle 63 (63" wing span with 710 Square inches of wing, 4.25 lbs) on a baffle glow 0.15cid engine at 6K feet altitude. Yes the Eagle, not the smaller Eaglet. I could do figure 8's mid-field. No loops but that wasn't the point. The key was to use rather flat pitched props.

So no, I don't think you should be concerned with weight, particularly if she flew with a 2.5cc (0.15 cid) diesel.

All the best,
Konrad


The Super 60 is/was a very popular Keilkraft radio model kit in production in the 60s and 70s in the UK-many thousands were built and it was a very popular sport and trainer model, on 3 or 4 ch radio. A number of people consider it one of the best trainers designed. These days it is mainly kitted by Ben Buckle. Typically in the era of its greatest popularity, it was powered by something like an Enya 19 ,OS 30 etc

The design proved so popular it spawned a few spinoffs like the Mini Super-for 09s, and the late David Boddington even had them down to about 0.25cc size...
 ChrisM
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Konrad
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2020, 09:44:58 PM »

Thanks guys,

The Super 60* looks to be in the same class but of a lighter stick construction than the plywood slab sided Eagle 63. With todays much lighter radio the PAW 19 should do fine for practicing taking offs and landings.  Do put the radio as far forward as possible and add as much lead as needed to get the center of gravity where needed.

A flat pitch prop with the OS 35 should open up some sport flying.

*"60" looks to have come from the wing span and not engine size (AKA 0.60 cid, 10cc).
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ffkiwi
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2020, 07:50:32 PM »

Here's a couple of adverts for it-and FWIW the plan is available on Outerzone..I would suggest the closest type of US equivalent would be one of the Sig Kadet series (in terms of structure and intended usage)

The Super 60 is in fact 63" span-and owes a bit (and not the least its name) to the earlier Keilkraft 'Junior 60' of the lates 40s-ca 1947-which is also quite popular in vintage circles. The Super 60 originally came out in 1961-and hung around for a good couple of decades on the market...as noted earlier it is still available from Ben Buckle. I know several people down here (NZ) who've been involved with modelling and R/C a very very long time who rate it as one of the best trainers ever designed.

 ChrisM
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ffkiwi
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2020, 07:53:32 PM »

As an afterthought-something like a .30 4-stroke in the Super 60 would make a very nice combination for quiet relaxed flying-with little to upset the neighbours....hmmm-now where did I put that OS 30 Surpass.....

 ChrisM
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Konrad
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2020, 01:18:00 AM »

More like the Sig Kadet Seniorita rather than the brute that was the classic Kadet II
https://sigmfg.com/collections/sig-kits/products/sig-kadet-seniorita-kit
https://sigmfg.com/collections/sig-kits/products/sig-kadet-mark-ii-kit

To the OP's original question the PAW 19 r/c should be almost perfect.

All the best,
Konrad

P.S.
I have a few HP VT-25 looking for a home. These stick trainers are looking like a perfect match.
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mick66
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2020, 02:11:09 AM »

Hi

Why do you want to use a CL venturi instead of the RC carb? Or did I get that wrong?

An RC carb is very useful on models like this ... you can fly it 'on the throttle' as opposed to using elevators for gaining or losing height.  It's a bit on the heavy side but not anything that will matter, I'm sure you'll enjoy flying it.  

Lol ... it's probably a BenBuckle kit ... they are 'brickwood'.  Built a FF KK Bandit many years ago that came out at 16oz with lead to balance!

The OS35 is not a bad choice for that size/weight but as others have said, modern radio/lipos moved forward might free up some weight.  But if it's ready to go with the OS35 then go fly it.

Cheers

Mike
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whiskers
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2020, 03:36:49 AM »

Mick66 - I was looking for a control line venturi for the OS 35 which I bought with a view of installing it in a control line model. As I was worried about the all-up weight of the 'Super' I decided to stuff the OS R/C on the front instead of the PAW 19.

C of G has turned out OK. With the RX battery pack hard up against the cabins forward bulkhead the balance is bang-on without any added lead. Just waiting for my receiver to arrive and it can start flying.

I will save the PAW for something prettier than the Super 60 in the future.

Prepare to be shot down in flames and dons 'tin hat'...I think the Super 60 is firmly in the ugly camp! I know they are supposed to be a fantastic trainer (what I wanted it for) and have been sooo successful, but I just can't get away with the looks.
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mick66
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2020, 06:25:35 AM »

You should be fine with it ... in the same league as the Tyro Major which was another great trainer.

My first KK model catalogue ... bought on a primary school trip to York in a tiny back alley shop.  Had to get MrMcAuliffe to loan me 20p to afford it.

Mike


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