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Author Topic: Flat Wing P-30  (Read 4349 times)
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calgoddard
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« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2021, 03:06:00 PM »

Dean, Kevin and Indoorflyer - Thanks for your interest and support.

George Bredehoft has been very busy filling orders lately so I guess he is a little behind getting the new Three Nite P-30 short kit listed on his Volare Products website.

I am continuing the build of my third prototype of my Three Nite P-30.  I am building my second version of the Volare Products short kit, this time using lighter balsa wood.  

The attached picture shows the completed fuselage. It weighs 7 grams.  It is probably one of the straightest box fuselages I have ever built. And no, I don't have a second gear-shaped coffee table that meshes with the one shown in the picture.

The slab sides of the fuselage are laser-cut in two sections so that the short kit is easier to ship. As shown in the attached picture, the stab platform is one triangular piece with tabs that interlock with tabs on the tail end of the fuselage sides. This makes for good alignment and helps avoid a "banana boat" fuselage.

As shown in the third picture, each laser-cut cross-piece has integral gussets at each end that serve as stops when they are glued in notches and to the inside walls of the fuselage sides. This keeps the fuselage sides a uniform distance apart.

It would simply be impractical to try to cut fuselage sides, cross-pieces and a stab platform like those in the short kit by hand. Even if you could, it would not be possible to obtain the dimensional precision yielded by laser cutting. The large ovals laser cut in the sides of the fuselage save 2 grams.  That might not sound like much, but every little bit helps in building near the 40 gram minimum weight set forth in the rules for the P-30 event as adopted by the AMA.

I will build the nose assembly and wing saddle next.  I ordered some medium density balsa wood last week so that I can strip the sticks for the LE, TE and spars. The shipment from the supplier is supposed to arrive this week. The balsa wood in my current inventory is either too light (7# or less) or too heavy (12# or more).

Thanks for following this third build.
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« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 03:41:13 PM by calgoddard » Logged
Bredehoft
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« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2021, 12:56:39 PM »

It is online now  Smiley

--george
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calgoddard
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« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2021, 03:59:13 PM »

The attached picture shows the frame of the wing of my third Three Nite P-30.  My shipment of balsa wood arrived early. The weight as shown is 6.7 grams. Note the three sheer webs connecting the upper and lower main spars in the three center bays of the wing.

I have been using the term "prototype" too loosely.

My original scratch-built Three Nite P-30 was a prototype. That model is shown in an earlier post in this topic.  It blue, yellow and red.

My second build was a test build of the Volare Products laser-cut short kit. That blue and yellow model flew OOS on its fourth trim flight. The DT was operating and was set for a little over two minutes.  2 1/2 hours of searching by me and my wife were not successful in locating that model.

I am currently building a third Three Nite P-30 using a Volare Products short kit to replace my recently lost model.  It is being built with lighter wood.

Technically the second and third Three Nite P-30s are not prototypes since they have the same basic design as the first one that proved the concept.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2021, 05:19:52 PM »

I like the geared table. Are there several interlocking across the room? You could sit at one end and rotate the soup at the other
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PeeTee
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« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2021, 05:48:59 PM »

 Grin Grin

Cheers!
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flydean1
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« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2021, 09:08:26 PM »

Trackers!!!
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calgoddard
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« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2021, 03:22:56 PM »

I have owned and used the Walston RF tracking system successfully for many years.

I have a frequency A transmitter and a frequency B transmitter in case someone else is flying at the field with a similar system.

Unfortunately, I did not mount one of my RF transmitters onboard my second Three Nite P-30 that flew OOS on March 7, 2021.

That model weighed 45 grams and I wanted to observe its performance without the additional 3-4 grams represented by a Walston RF transmitter and batteries.

I am building a third Three Nite P-30 that will be lighter.  I won't fly it without an RF transmitter on board.
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flydean1
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« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2021, 06:10:11 PM »

Not meaning to seem like a jerk re: trackers.  I won't test glide without one!  One question:  What type of DT?  Tip up tail, tip up wing, or wing pop-off?  The only genuinely successful DT I have used on a P30 is the pop-off wing.  There is a down side of potential front end damage if it hits on a road or rock, and sometimes the line retaining the wing gets badly hung-up in foliage. 

Clint Brooks has worked out a combo system of pop-up wing and tail, which seems to work well.  It would defeat your purpose of a simple-to-build model.
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calgoddard
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« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2021, 07:11:21 PM »

flydean1 -

No worries. I appreciate you following along and making helpful comments.  I have learned my lesson now and will always load one of my RF transmitters on board any model large enough to endure the weight penalty.  I have a brand new scratch-built coupe that has a nice little box built right over the CG inside the fuselage that will accept one of my Walston RF transmitters.  The box has plenty of clearance relative to the wound 12 x 1/8 rubber motor. It has not yet been flown but I will absolutely install and RF transmitter in it before its first trim flights. I have a standard practice of checking the batteries in a battery checker before installing them in the RF transmitter.  I then hook up the antenna to the receiver and confirm that I am getting a beep-beep-beep before I launch.

My second Three Nite P-30 had a pop-up stab DT. I know that this will sometimes not prevent a P-30 from being carried away by a strong thermal.

I have combination pop-up wing and pop-up stab DTs on my two "high-tech" P-30s shown in the attached pictures. They are my own design. These DTs are too complicated for a beginner.  But these P-30s are at or slightly below the 40 gram minimum and need protection from strong thermals. The weight of the RF transmitter counts toward the 40-gram minimum in the rules so they are both legal if flown with an RF transmitter on board.

If you use a combination pop-up wing and pop-up stab DT the model descends gently in horizontal orientation with no risk of damage to the prop or front end of the fuselage.

I have one P-30 with a pop-off wing DT.  I am not a big fan of that arrangement because of the rapid nose-down descent and the risk of a bent prop shaft.

The Volare Products plan for my Three Nite P-30 shows a pop-up stab DT activated by a fuse. This is the simplest DT to implement and is very reliable so long as you remember to light the fuse.
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« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 07:25:50 PM by calgoddard » Logged
DerekMc
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« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2021, 07:35:48 PM »

flydean1 -

I have one P-30 with a pop-off wing DT.  I am not a big fan of that arrangement because of the rapid nose-down descent and the risk of a bent prop shaft.


Has the bent prop wire happened? I've had 50+ flights with a pop off wing dt without a bent prop wire. Many of the dt's were on hard ground.
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« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2021, 10:30:36 PM »

Cal, I know about the unlit fuse.  Lost a Viking as a kid by forgetting to light it.

I go through the same drill pre-flighting my Walston system.  One difference;  I do the initial check with no antenna, just the receiver only and with the attenuator ON.  Jim Walston gave me that suggestion just as I was first using his system (I miss that guy).  He said that at very close range you should get the beeps.

Another trick Joe Clawson showed me after I dropped one of my transmitters in tall grass.  I use yellow balloon sections to hold the batteries in.  Still disappeared.  Joe told me to disconnect the antenna and use the wire sort of as a sounding tool.  It got me within a couple feet.  Believe it or not, I spotted the antenna wire first.  Looked like a grass stem out of place.

If I could afford it, I would go to the newfangled GPS systems.  However, with a good compass line, county road map, and my Walston I do pretty well.
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calgoddard
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« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2021, 11:32:58 AM »

Derek -

No, I have not suffered a bent prop shaft on my P-30 with a pop-off wing DT.

I have attached a picture of that model.  I named it my Holiday P-30 as it was quickly built about five years ago during the Christmas holiday to test how the pop-off wing DT works.  It is my own design except that I did use the wing ribs and wing plan from a One Nite 28 kit.

I have not flown my Holiday P-30 very much but the pop-off wing DT seemed to work fine.  The straight down rapid descent concerned me because of the hard pack dirt around the flight line in Perris, CA. I now prefer the pop-up wing and pop-up stab DT.

My Three Nite P-30 is intended to be a quick build for both beginners and experienced fliers.  The fuse activated tip-up stab DT shown on the Volare Products plan is the simplest and most reliable DT around.  Yes it is inadequate if the model encounters a strong thermal.  However, I don't want to present a beginner with the challenge of implementing a pop-off wing DT.  Securely anchoring rotating fishing lures mid-chord on one wing tip and to the tail end of the fuselage, and with the proper length of fishing line strung over the top of the horizontal stabilizer may be daunting tasks for a beginner.

I wish to take this opportunity to thank you for creating and updating your P-30 website.  It is a very nice resource.  Do you think you could add the Three Nite P-30 to your P30 Page? I will fill out and submit your contact form. Thanks in advance.

_____________________________________


flydean1 - Thanks for those excellent tips about use of the Walston retrieval system. I was not aware of them and they could come in handy.
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DerekMc
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« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2021, 06:12:33 PM »

Derek -

I wish to take this opportunity to thank you for creating and updating your P-30 website.  It is a very nice resource.  Do you think you could add the Three Nite P-30 to your P30 Page? I will fill out and submit your contact form. Thanks in advance.

Your welcome. Yes, lets set up a page for your new P30. It's a cool plane. I plan on ordering one soon. I'll respond to your email shortly!
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Derek
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« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2021, 05:04:05 PM »

Here's a link to Calgoddard's Three-Night P30 on The P30 Page.    Cool Plane Mike!

http://p30page.weebly.com/three-night-p30.html
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Derek
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« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2021, 07:23:43 PM »

I did a bit of editing on the Three Nite P30 page so the link shared above doesn't work any more.  Here's a link that works-

http://p30page.weebly.com/three-nite-p30.html
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Derek
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« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2021, 07:54:31 PM »



I hope to fly a P-30 at Lost Hills this year.  Kind of a bucket list thing I want to check off.  The "Three Night" really appeals to this P-30 newbie...
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flydean1
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« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2021, 09:37:46 PM »

Well, I took the bait.  Despite having 2-1/2 P30 kits (Built Majestyk wing and tail counts for 1/2), I ordered myself a 3-Night P30 Kit from Volare.  Just felt like supporting the effort and I have someone in mind that it would be a good starter model.
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lincoln
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« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2021, 12:59:35 AM »

That gear table looks like it could use string as a clamp for something that needs to be held down, though maybe something larger. Maybe a smaller, rectangular one would be good for fuselages.

My Walston was easy to find when it had a fresh battery and was secured in a model. However, without the battery and outside of a model, I can't find it. It might be someplace in my car. Who knows?
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calgoddard
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« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2021, 06:13:52 PM »

There is a reduced copy of the Volare Products plan for the Three Nite P-30 in Derek's excellent P30 Page website. The link that will take you there is set forth in Reply #64. You will need to scroll down a bit.

If you scroll down in the article you can see a photo of the scratch-built prototype.  It has a red 9 1/2-inch Czech (Igra) prop instead of a 9 1/2-inch Gizmo Geezer prop assembly.  The latter is recommended for beginners.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 06:24:32 PM by calgoddard » Logged
calgoddard
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« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2021, 04:25:11 PM »

Here is a picture of the completed frame of the horizontal stabilizer. It was built with the laser-cut ribs from the Volare Products short kit.

The weight as shown is 1.92 grams.  I like the covered stab of a P-30 to be around 3 grams. We'll see what this one weighs after covering with Esaki tissue.

The dimensions of the stab are 12 3/4-inches x 3 inches.  That includes the sheet balsa wood fins which are laser-cut from 1/16-inch sheet balsa wood.

The fins will be glued to the outermost ribs after the stab is covered.

The can of chicken gravy was included in the picture to give you an idea of the scale of the stab.
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calgoddard
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« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2021, 05:21:03 PM »

Here is a picture of the completed bones of my 2nd build of the Volare Products short kit for my Three Nite P-30.

The weight as shown is 31.40 grams. That includes the weight of two # 16 office rubber bands that are temporarily holding the wing saddle to the fuselage.  When the model is completed, the longitudinal position of the wing saddle will be adjusted (with a rubber motor installed) to set the CG at the optimum location.  The wing saddle will then be glued in place.

The tip plates have been tack glued to the outer wing ribs for illustration purposes.  The tail fins have been tack glued to the outer stab ribs for illustration purposes. The tip plates and tail fins will be removed to make it easier to cover the wing and stab with tissue.

I will paint the tip plates and tail fins with flat black Design Master floral spray paint. It is very light weight and gives a moisture-proof coating.  Plus, I like the way black tip plates and tail fins look on the model when it has been covered with tissue.
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« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2021, 05:55:37 AM »

Don't use black for rudders, or, in this case the tip plates. White shows up much better against a dark tree line. (If you fly in California you can ignore this.)

Black is great on the underside of the wing since it offers a strong contrast against a light sky.  A bit of day glow red, orange, or pink on the upper wing tips really helps visibility in tall grass.

I try to use the same color scheme for all my models so I can easily recognize them at a distance.

Louis

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calgoddard
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« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2021, 03:27:34 PM »

I finished the build of my third Three Nite P-30.  I have been busy with other projects.

This model was built from the Volare Products short kit and replaces my blue and yellow version that flew OOS. See Reply #42. That model was also built from the Volare Products short kit.

I took the advice from Louis and painted the tip plates and tail fins red.

The weight is of this build is 40.2 grams.  The short kit I used in building my third Three Nite P-30 included lighter sheet wood. The Walston RF transmitter and its batteries will add about 3 grams.

This model has a tilt up stab DT, like its two predecessors.  I know that it will not come down in a strong thermal.  This is a beginner's design and I don't want the complexity of a pop-up or pop-off wing DT.

I will have to wait at least another week for the winds to decline at my local flying site.  I want the winds to be under 4 mph for trimming.

While my goal was simplicity in the build, flights of my prior two Three Nite P-30 models showed that this design is easily capable of achieving a two-minute max under the P-30 rules.

I have screwed in 5 degrees of down thrust and 2 degrees of right thrust into the Gizmo Geezer prop assembly and will make further thrust line adjustments during trim flights, if needed.



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« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2021, 04:58:29 PM »

I think you should call it the Finny-30 b/c it looks so much like the early Finny planes.
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« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2021, 05:09:55 PM »

Beautiful plane and beautiful lake.
Why not fit a pair of float's and try a ROW ?

A good example that sometimes experimenting is more worth than long discussion. You did a great job Calgoddard, compliments.

Urs
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