Logo
Builders' Plan Gallery  |  Hip Pocket Web Site  |  Contact Forum Admin (Account/Technical Issues)  |  Contact Global Moderator
October 30, 2020, 09:22:06 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with email, password and session length
 
Home Help Search Login Register
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: A particular Spirit of St Louis photo?  (Read 816 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« on: October 04, 2020, 11:16:37 AM »

Some time after landing at Le Bourget, Lindbergh's Spirit was pushed into a very large hangar and photographed intensely. The photo I need is the one, IIRC, that shows the dramtic and complete extent heavy grease staining on the left cowl, streaming odirectly  from  #7 cylinder. Again, IIRC, I believe this shot appeared in my old copy of the book "The Spirit of St. Louis" by Charles Lindbergh, and was taken from high above (possibly from a cat waclk or balcony??) , front  left quarter. There are several a similar views from same vantage (different phtographers?) on-line here but the grease stain has been cleaned partially away.

A link to photo is fine but a scan from the book would be greatly appreciated. I'm afraid a series of moves  has seen my old copies of SOSL and We left un-accounted for.

Hoping my gray matter hasn't let me down, here.
 TIA!!!
charlie
Logged
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 152
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 5,885




Ignore
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2020, 12:10:10 PM »

Charlie, is it this one on the Getty Images site?
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/this-photo-one-of-the-first-to-arrive-in-new-york-news-photo/516479256?adppopup=true
Logged
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2020, 11:28:51 AM »

Thank you pete!!
Not exactly the image I remember/hoping for, BUT!! I believe I'm starting to see a a definite sequence pattern.  It sure looks to me  like the stain is being removed in stages, there , in the large Le Bourget hangar, and the photos are showing us different degrees of "clean", over several different views.

Back story: In Lindbergh tome, the author odd statements that have mystified NYP aircraft enthusiasts and historians for years. One of the mysteries is the "stolen grease fitting".  At Lindbergh's first reunion with his aircraft, after landing (next day?) he notes the crowd damage to the airplane and an assumption of theft of an engine fitting. Long story short: It appears the fitting was not stolen, but either backed out or broke off, some time BEFORE landing. depositing the heinous grease stain. along  the left cowling. I'm thinking congealed rocker arm grease because it's so dark in earlier photos and seems to be a bit of a chore, to remove!

Here's later/closer  hangar view. Note stain arc still faintly visible thru/aft of the "O" in St. Louis.  https://66.media.tumblr.com/f5fc76df8aebe3fd5dc47a821fea0a85/tumblr_inline_pedfwi9Qx71so5a13_500.png
 
Logged
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2020, 12:17:55 PM »

Another view of the partially removed stain. In my view taken earlier than the last one.
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/charles-lindbergh-atlantic-crossing-lindbergh-next-to-the-spirit-of-picture-id152246965
Logged
Starduster
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 37
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,412




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2020, 06:02:22 PM »

I've always wondered what happened to his flight log. The story goes is that someone took it out of his hand as he was trying to escape the crowd. I've often thought that somewhere in France, it's in a box in an attic and someday, someone's going to be cleaning out Great Grand Dad's house and find it.
Logged

"We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty..."
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2020, 01:36:01 AM »

Starduster :
"I've always wondered what happened to his flight log. The story goes is that someone took it out of his hand as he was trying to escape the crowd."

One of the book's mysteries??? CAL refers  to it as a source for the stolen fitting retelling!!! He also mentions the recover of the fuselage fabric, while in French "protection".

Three friends, Ty Sundstrom, Mike Gretz (noted modeler!), and John Norman visited the dismantled Spirit, at NASM, 2015. I couldnt go because of heart surgery.  John Norman looked under main fuel tank with a bore scope, specifically hoping to find the missing logs. No missing documents, but he find a a pair of pliers apparently left in the aircraft back in San Diego, before final assembly. Aluminum dope overspray on the pliers, co-insides with when entire interior cockpit area got a spray coat of Aluminum dope.
Logged
gossie
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 50
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 1,864



Ignore
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2020, 04:01:04 AM »

I was interested a mention of it being dismantled.
I saw it in the Smithsonian and I thought it was a permanent exhibition.
Tell us more please.
Logged
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2020, 12:37:25 PM »

Got this directly from Ty, so it's only close secondhand ...plus some of my own personal recollection.  This is definitely to be taken as IIRC!!!

By all accounts, the aircraft was getting pretty sad, hanging from gallery ceiling, disintegrating actually. Fabric and wooden bits (especially balsa bits) deforming badly etc. In early 2015, our group, Historic Flight Research, was notified that the plane was to be lowered and accessed for possible restoration. This presented a unique and rare opportunity to examine the airframe intimately. And to a level of access and purpose heretofore unknown. Plans were made to send an HFR team! Since Ty was known restorer, early Ryan expert and historian, he was asked to make suggestions about preservation. He was also invited to speak to a large crowd of select Smithsonian officials and supporters about his research into Lindbergh's life and activities, during days leading up to and after the flight, as well his vast knowledge of the Spirit's  tech history.   

All came off as planned. As HFR's official draftsman, I received digital copies of all data, photos, and vid taken during the visit. Some partial dismantling took place, at that time. I'm not sure the wing was removed, but I'm thinking a full restoration assessment could not be made unless it was. Borescope at least gave HRF team access to near any interior space. I'm not sure if NASM recieved same data I got, but sounds reasonable, if they did.

It has been my understanding that as a condition of donation to Smithsonian, 1928, Lindbergh stipulated that no restoration of the aircraft was ever be allowed. I don't know how such would be/was handled, or even if it was an issue.

Sadly, Mike Gretz passed away soon after. Ty also died  too young, 2019. And I'm getting concerned, as all online activity from John's sites has, apparently, stopped(Do yourself a favor and Google search "John Norman Spirit of St. Louis"!). I had to move away due to family and health, so have not been active as I could/should.  At age 71, I don't know what's to become of all our findings and original drawings etc., let alone my own pet research projects.   

Would gladly help a dedicated younger historian should he like to pick up the banner, so to speak.  BTW it's been my experience that modelers make the best av historians and draftsmen!
Logged
gossie
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 50
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 1,864



Ignore
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2020, 04:58:19 PM »

Interesting Charlie.
Thanks for your information, but is it back up where it was hanging in Smithsonian?
Logged
OZPAF
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 186
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 5,896



Ignore
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2020, 07:28:28 PM »

Thanks for all that info Charlie - fascinating insight. I hope someone is able to take you up on that request to continue with your work.

Pliers still in the plane - an indication of how quickly the Ryan was built!

It appears from your comments re the grease/oil stains that Lindbergh would not have been able to stay in the air much longer.

John
Logged
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2020, 03:26:22 PM »

gossie,

I don't know the status of the Spirit at present. Last recent photo I saw shows it on the floor, somewhere at NASM. Everything seems to be in place, except it has small diameter tires and sits behind a menacing single strand of yellow caution tape. Iknow there are photos online showing curators addressing small areas of fabric. I'm thinking this may be initial "restoration efforts"?

OZPAF

I believe you are quite correct, depending one's definition of "much longer".  After departing Paris, then on to Brussels, Croydon, and finally Gosport England approx. 40 hrs total flight time added since leaving New York.  At Gosport the Spirit was entrusted to US NAVY crewmen of USS Memphis. The plane was disassembled and packed in a large wooden crate for the return.   Still in Navy care,  Spirit was re-assembled  Bolling Field, VA, and an attempt was made to start the engine. No Joy. Nada.  It was soon deduced that there was no compression in...wait for it...  cylinder #7; Engine was overhauled  and the US celebrations and tours began.  IIRC,  CAL seems to have indicated 40hrs was  the max endurance senario planned for. one might ask if indeed he was truly lucky?
Logged
OZPAF
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 186
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 5,896



Ignore
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2020, 08:06:12 PM »

Thanks again Charlieman - more fascinating details - I didn't know much of what happened after it had landed in Paris.

It surprised me when I read of the comments of a pilot flying I think the EAA replica saying that he didn't believe the incident during the crossing when Lindbergh relates that he dozed off and regained control after being woken by a fly landing on his face. The plane was too marginally stable in pitch for that to be possible in his opinion - even though I believe the replica had a slightly increased tail area.

After reading Lindbergh's biography - I'm sure it did happen - a man who could fly at night through snow on his mail run flights, with minimum instrumentation would have been used to" flying by the seat of his pants."

John

Logged
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2020, 08:38:42 AM »

Here's a tidbit of Spirit history and tech, not generally appreciated.

IIRC, CAL reports low RPM's for takeoff, NY. I believe he attributes  to generally wet conditions, existing at the time.  Yet, he elects to make an attempt anyway.??!!

Earlier, CAL had related how he'd encountered terrifying moments, of carburetor icing, flying over the Rocky Mountains, at night. It scared him enough to decide on adding carb heat feature,  at first opportunity. That came when he landed in NY.  The addition, apparently a hasty installation, was of the hard wire, sliding within an external sheath type. This rather like  bicycle brake or throttle on gas mower, etc, was not mounted within the Spirit cabin. The excess sheath and extending wire at cabin end were simply coiled and attached to diagonal frame member, next to pilot's seat.  It has been  assumed that CAL could have operated carb heat on/off by holding the coiled sheath with one hand, while pushing/pulling hard wire with the other, IF he chose to.do so. 
 
The truly curious thing about Spirit's carb heat control is, that in every known photo (to HFR) of the heat muff, shows the heat is in ON position. It is ON to this day. Was the  low RPM story more for dramatic story telling?  Or did he not fully appreciate that new fangled carb heat caused slight power loss? Or was the choice to leave it constantly "ON" a cool calculated engine reliability measure??  What if it's elements of all three??

Has the Spirit's carb heat been in the on position for every flight since NY installation??  I/we believe so.
Logged
OZPAF
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 186
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 5,896



Ignore
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2020, 06:52:11 PM »

Thanks for more interesting info. I couldn't quite follow how the rod in a sheath carb heater worked. Was it a mechanical device?

John
Logged
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2020, 12:22:18 PM »

Yes, mechanical push-pull action, usually from a fixed control panel or dash board. Simple knob or lever arrangement at operator end, moves the wire forward and back within the sheath, to operate a fixed lever, somewhere else.  In the Spirit there was no way to move the wire conveniently at pilot end. Effectively locking the carb heat in the full on position. Apparently, after New York installation, the aircraft was operated  purposely/regularly/constantly at less than peak available engine power.

Should I continue?  I just came upon a whopper myth on wiki.
Logged
piecost
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 11
Online Online

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 543



Ignore
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2020, 03:11:49 PM »

This is an interesting thread please continue. Was the carb heat done using exhaust gas over the inlet to the carb?
Logged
OZPAF
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 186
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 5,896



Ignore
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2020, 05:49:02 PM »

Definitely. This is fascinating history. Thanks for the explanation.

John
Logged
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2020, 01:09:19 PM »

Disclaimer: I emphatically deny that I have purposely ever attempted to slander, defame, or otherwise attacked the character of ANY  historical figure mentioned in the following discussion.  Any moral judgement is entirely  to be determined by individual reader(s).

Wiki Myths? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_St._Louis


How much design input did Lindbergh, or Donald Hall, for that matter, actually contribute to the design of NYP aircraft?

Early 1927, Lindbergh, it would seem, set initial design specs when he began a series of tele coms with Ryan Airlines (paraphrased) "Can you build Whirlwind powered monoplane capable of flying, non-stop New York to Paris?  How fast can it be done?

It appears the answer came from T. Claude Ryan (What, more myths?!), who wired back, "Yes. 90 days".

CAL -  "Can you  deliver in 60 days?"
 
T.Claude-  'Yes, but we'll have to modify an earlier type, it will need a bigger wing".

The AH-HA import of this conversation is realization that entire basic NYP parameters were established between Lindbergh and Ryan. Hall, it would seem, was not part of the discussion. The development account in book The Spirit of St Louis, is about to get convoluted and historically, VERY CONFUSING.

According to CAL, " the very first" design consideration firmly decided upon, between himself and Donald Hall, was finalization of landing gear type and  configuration (important statement "the very first"!).  And, some 9 days later, upon return, he expresses surprise over near complete  (possibly complete) fusleage frame, "taking shape" out in the factory.  Good questions to contemplate at this point, might be to ask, "Was the fuselage a whole new design?" also "Was said fuselage welded up/finished in 9 days?" and, it may seem odd to ask, but, "Where was CAL and what was he doing over those 9 days?"  

To be continued, ASAP
Logged
fred
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 7
Offline Offline

Canada Canada

Posts: 569



Ignore
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2020, 02:48:34 PM »

Hmm My readins suggested that Lindberg intended to buy a Bellanca .. which would have easily made the trip, in relative Pilot luxury..
It even had an interior with mod cons.. as well as actual Windows.
 But the Idiot 'then Partner' of Bellanca... Reneged on the sales deal.. at the last moment of course. He had his own  delusions of personal grandeur.
The man took the self same 'Lindberg' plane with pilot to  Berlin. More than proving it would have made the transatlantic run to Europe... easily.
 Understandably Pissed, Lindberg had a substitute Plane built.
Far less capable, fairly primitive  Nor nearly as well designed as the Bellanca, it in fact 'copied' as much of the Bellanca design as it could.
But it was 15,000$ rather than the 20,000$ agreement for the no longer for sale Bellanca.  

Lotsa relevant factoids if one reads a bit further into history.
Logged
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2020, 01:39:45 PM »

I would agree, CAL was probably getting pretty anxious when he got round to contacting Ryan Airlines. However, his view of his meeting with Levine, as written  in his book SOSL, is also probably a bit glamorized and sensationalized.

Donald Hall certainly claimed he was "THE" NYP's designer. IIRC, his first public claim was made in New York, prior to CAL's take off for Paris.  Later, Hall went on record as claiming he developed Spirt from M-2, stretching out fuselage at nose and tail,  adding a larger wing, etc. The implications taken from , has certainly been that Hall designed a whole new fuselage. The reality is that existing M-3c fuselage design did all the same things and in the EXACT SAME geometry, dimensions and configuration! HMMM?  The story makes much more sense with M-3c fuselage frame utilization.
 
I believe the SOSL accounts, where Lindbergh is supposedly consulted as to Where he would sit?, Why ailerons placed inboard, rather than at wing tips? Choosing "too small", unstable tail areas etc. are historical red herrings  EVERYTHING mentioned was set in stone, way back in the first CAL-T. Claude Ryan exchanges.  There were no choices. Any justification for supposed benefit or result, is made after the fact.

In rather odd turn, Hall seems to downplay his important involvement  in items that have been contributed by him.  After a reliable engine, THE single most important HALL engineering, appears to have been his wing design. He adapted a John Northrop I-beam spar design, but carried it out to extremes in strength, flexibility and weight savings (46' NYP wing weighed in at 300 +lbs. LESS than standard 36' M-1/M-2/M-3c wing!). He appears to have done a bit more than add 10' of wing.! He also deigned/lofted the cowl.    A number of historians have noted that Hall seemed to have made sketches and/or rendered formal detailed drawings of only the parts and portions he had a hand in. It should also be noted that Hall made all his formal drawing, AFTER the flight.

He, apparently, made no sketches or detailed drawings of landing gear. Can't say if that fact is significant. But....?





 
Logged
Ratz
MAAC#26533
Administrator
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 133
Offline Offline

Canada Canada

Posts: 812


WWW
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2020, 07:15:13 PM »

A new topic regarding Packardpursuit's computer giving up the ghost has been created from a few posts that previously resided in this thread. It now resides in a more suitable area of the forum.

https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=25599.0

Ratz
Logged

We don't stop playing because we grow old...
We grow old because we stop playing.
OZPAF
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 186
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 5,896



Ignore
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2020, 07:49:05 PM »

More fascinating stuff! Thanks.

John
Logged
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2020, 12:09:57 PM »

Here's a photo of Spirit's fuselage frame. https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/6057245706/lightbox/


How do we know?  Chromed joystick, rudder pedals,. "moved forward" , longer than normal J-4 engine mount,  single door in rt side and TWO different type/configuration landing gear fittings ??!!

Note torch burns in gray paint, where extra L.G. fittings were added for wider/later more familiar "outrigger" gear. Burns also where the pedals were modified. The interchangeable  4 point engine mount is still unpainted, at this point. I think the  ramifications of this  image are compelling. It would appear this basic frame was first completed, rudder cables installed, and finish painted as a modified M-3c. Lose the full ht. door, and it is identical to open cockpit  M-3c, and except for slight geometry of rear longerons, also identical to earlier M- a/c. ALL of which  originally  deigned for a common centerline-swing, split-axel landing gear configuration.

If the NYP was of a whole new design and construction, WHY fittings for one useless landing gear type?? ditto for CAL's recollection of "the very first thing" decided upon, between himself and Hall?? 


Logged
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2020, 12:02:30 PM »

Back in Le Bourget hangar. Probably not long after being pushed inside. Note military guard among the posers.  Also note relative size of "crowd damage" holes at this point.  Many folded back edges of torn fuselage fabric visible. https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/frenchmen-standing-guard-beside-american-aviator-charles-news-photo/50695009?adppopup=true.
Logged
packardpursuit
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 45
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,195


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2020, 12:28:15 PM »

Later image,  under better protective custody??!! Note all the folded edges are now gone! https://farm1.staticflickr.com/969/41356173785_61fc247489_o.jpg


Some have speculated the fabric edges have been trimmed in prep for patchwork, But I think not. Mechanics  more likely to have trimmed to straight edges, producing neat rectangular openings. I think it likely many of those grinning "guards" might have helped themselves before/while the Spirit went behind the protective white picket fence ( yellow protective tape of that period?)!

 Note too, the grease stain coming up from cylinder #7, is still evident here (grime trapped in the cowling swirls/"engine turnings"?). 
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!