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Author Topic: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O  (Read 5708 times)
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g_kandylakis
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« on: October 05, 2020, 05:02:22 PM »

Before starting this new thread, I checked the forum table first. My suspicion was confirmed...

There are already three other threads started by me , where no final result can be seen... The Sikorsky S-39 is on long pause, the Loening isn't even started due to documentation problems and the PZL 24 is ready to paint, waiting for a favorable weeekend weather... Not to mention a Fokker F.II from 2016...

Then, there is also my Sopwith Batboat in the RC forum, on a shorter pause until I get the PZL done...

In the meantime I am also building a CO2 Puffin, ready for covering at the moment.

So, what is this about a new model Huh

Well, another long term documentation project ended very suddenly, with the positive find of suitable accurate plans which solved my problem of drawing my own.

So, another building project can begin... My intention is to replace my d.H.9, now 10 years old, for competition flying... About time, some might say, and I am one of them...

We are talking about a 1/20 scale model, again both free flight and RC. First choice is the land version "N".
If I find the way to make a light interchangeable landing gear, the seaplane version "O" will also be an option.

As used in the mid 1920s by the Greek Naval Aviation. 6 were initially purchased as N/Os, a further number of Ns were later licence built.

Started work with the easiest parts, the tail surfaces.

Now all I have to do is find a sufficient number of tables for the various building boards  Grin
I already have a rotating chair...

George
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
1/20th Avro 504 N/O
1/20th Avro 504 N/O
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 05:13:44 PM by g_kandylakis » Logged

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Tim Horne
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« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2020, 05:35:21 PM »

Excellent news George.......for us watching Smiley

I assume that this will be electric if it is a replacement for the DH9?
Where did you find the reliable drawings and whose are they?

As always it will be great to watch your careful and precise problem solving techniques through all the build stages. I’ll get my popcorn!

I have been pondering whether to start my next project which will be a replacement for my DWC. The opposite reason from you. The DWC hasn’t properly been flown in competition yet due to Covid, but I’m getting bored now. Might end up with two models before the first gets started!

Tim
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2020, 06:10:36 PM »

Never apologise for starting another model, George! This one is going to be another beauty, and who cares how long it takes? We'll all enjoy the journey regardless. I really like the look of that seaplane version by the way.
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Invader3
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« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2020, 07:08:07 AM »

Like Tim, I'm getting ready to settle down to enjoy watching and learning - but as SWMBO has me on a diet, it'll be salad and not popcorn!   Tongue Angry

John

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g_kandylakis
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« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2020, 01:04:45 PM »

I think that neither pop corn nor a salad will be suitable for the watching of this build. I would rather go with something like caned food or similar, definetely something with a long expiration date... Grin

Yes, electric. A bit smaller in size and wing area than the d.H.9, so out of necessity a bit lighter as well.

The Avro Heritage Museum came to the rescue. Drawings are by Len Whalley, apparently a well known figure in static modelling as far as documentation goes. There is the natural restriction of use and of further distribution, with which I am fine as long as I can use them for my purpose.

Tim, I see no reason at all for not starting your next project. As a matter of fact the timing is perfect... Nothing to repair, you have an almost battle-ready model available, time to think and act ahead... But please tell us what it is...

Pete, I have no problem with starting another model... The problem is with eventually finishing some of them  Sad

First pictures should follow today,

George
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g_kandylakis
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« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2020, 06:37:42 PM »

And the first pictures...

For an inknown reason I always seem to start with the tail surfaces...

Again with use of an inside sheet core, instead of standard stick and tissue construction. It halps me make accurate outlines and very thin edges. Or so I think...

Starting off with my new building board. After over 30 years I decided to make a new one out of 30mm balsa. This time I glued two halfs together for extra width, as there were many times when I was at or over the limit of my surface.

Rudder first, one side done, moving on to the second one
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
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g_kandylakis
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« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2020, 06:44:42 PM »

stabiliser and elevators on the other side of the board...

Ribs are glued oversize in height, allowing proper positioning and 90 degree angle, using steel edges for alignment.

A finished stab (from many years ago) can also be seen. Started as a test for surface painting and finishing...Even has rib stitching to see how it will look like...

Not a quick build yet, but as our ancient philosophers said, the start is half of everything

George
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2020, 07:53:36 PM »

Hi George,

I like the way you've made the drawings of the tail surfaces:  extending the lines past the perimeter.  Makes it a lot easier to get internal sticks square.

Cheers,
Don
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kaintuck
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2020, 09:38:08 AM »

George...fantastic work as usual!...But may I ask about small model rib stitching, what has worked for you?
I am privileged to have a local 1:1 scale builder in my area....watching him do a wing by hand is incredible...he sews the rib/covering one stich at a time......then paints, then the sanding begins..........
https://www.tnaviationhof.org/project/joseph-r-fleeman/

I've know Joe most of my life, and his family, when he builds a plane, it's perfect. I mean even the screw heads line up INSIDE where nobody will see them....but he knows HE will see them...so.........he does it.

I think the same of your work, just inspiring......... Grin
marc
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Prosper
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2020, 03:21:26 AM »

Quote from: g_kandylakis
There are already three other threads started by me , where no final result can be seen...
Congrats, George. If that's so, then I believe you may have surpassed even me for languishing build threads. . .that makes me feel less guilty, so thanks!

Quote from: g_kandylakis
. . .as our ancient philosophers said, the start is half of everything
But, wasn't the full saying: "The start is half of everything, but finishing is the other four fifths"? Grin

I'll be enjoying watching another exhibition of your special skills. I've always thought the Lynx Avro was really pretty.

Stephen.
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kkphantom
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2020, 05:23:25 AM »

I'd like to know how you cut such thin sheet so neatly and accurately. It fits the drawing perfectly, way beyond my skill level! You must be using magic or something.....it certainly ain't natural!
Gary
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g_kandylakis
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2020, 02:24:01 PM »

A few days late, I wanted to get something done first. to have something to post...

Thanks for the kind words, always welcome  Smiley

Marc,
for rib stitching I use the technique as described by Dave Causer in his Sopwith Camel plan. I am thinking of trying the similar one by Mike ZK-AUD which has some advantages:

https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=21366.msg256617#msg256617


Stephen,
I know the other one:
the 95% of a project takes 5% of the total time allocated
The remaining 5% takes the remaining 95%...

As for languishing models, I always knew I was a winner !


Gary,
I cut very thin sheet (0,5mm in this case) with a sharp razor blade (removed from a disposable Bic razor). But the final step is always fine sanding to the contour. Hence the neatness.
Also, the plan template is glued with 3M spray adhesive, so I have a very thin line to follow, in contact with the wood. With a bit care you can be very accurate. I too am looking for magic way, haven't found one yet  Angry

Back to the buid progress...

My build time was split between finishing the tail parts, covering a CO2 Puffin and painting a room...

Not much to say about the tail parts, the pictures should speak for themselves. Maybe too many of them, but you know me by now.

If there are questions, just ask...

 

Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
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g_kandylakis
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2020, 02:25:59 PM »

horizontal tail
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
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g_kandylakis
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2020, 02:29:12 PM »

#2...

There are still some things missing, such as support for various fittings, hinges etc. but the basic structure is done.

I want to finish the Puffin, hopefully by Saturday, and continue with the wings or the fuselage. It will take some time because I have to make construction drawings along the way...

George
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
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Tim Horne
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2020, 05:16:43 PM »

No questions George, just a comment that you can’t post too many photos as I love marvelling at the neatness and precision of your builds. “Just” a tailplane is a miniature work of art. Inspirational Smiley.
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OZPAF
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2020, 07:44:12 PM »

This is too good to miss George. Beautiful work.

I'm also a fan of sanding to shape but your use of templates as sanding guides is a step further and it shows.

Thanks for starting another model - the journey is worth more than reaching the destination perhaps?

John
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2020, 09:55:03 PM »

George, once again, thank you for sharing this beautiful build... your engineering shows up! Grin
I'm interested to when you get to the wings...I love to build biwing planes...but I am never satisfied of my incidences and root attachment....all those struts!
So, please show us how when you get there.......I have a sopwith sitting unfinished, and in the bones.....
https://ibb.co/nktPNxh
I just need to finish lazy bee #9 for a fellow modeler here, and I can get back to MY build!
Marc
1/20th Avro 504 N/O
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Jack Plane
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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2020, 01:11:02 AM »

Don't ever finish this one George - just keep posting photos as you progress!  Grin
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Invader3
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« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2020, 12:08:07 PM »

Hello George - I do have a question Cheesy  I know many others might know the answer, but I don't - so sorry if it's very simple!

As I'm still a relative beginner, could you just clarify exactly how you're using the sheet outline for the tail surfaces. Do you have the built up structure only on one side, so flat sheet on the other, or are you using the sheet as a centre keel or diaphragm with built up structure on both sides?  When I looked at your pictures on reply #11, the laminated outer rim looked much wider than it needed to be. Knowing your work, I assumed there was a purpose behind the width, and then realising there was no picture of the RHS of the tail fin, I wondered whether there was structure on both sides of the sheet.  As I say, it might be obvious to the "old hands", but not to me, so if I don't ask I don't learn!

Many thanks,
John

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g_kandylakis
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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2020, 02:45:26 PM »

The balsa sheet is a core. Sticks are glued on both sides, extending over the core outline so that the can match exactly top and bottom. Next they are trimmed to the core outline and a thin layer is glued as the actual outline. You are right, the outline was too wide/high. The initial height is not important, as it will be sanded down to 0.3mm over the core on each side, using an appropriate spacer.

This might be better visible here.

https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=22950.msg223341#msg223341

What is missing from the pictures are the sanding spacers, which are just plastic parts of required thickness, cut to fit between the sticks, so I sand until the sandpaper reaches the spacer...

I 'll try to post a pic at a next chance...

As for why I choose this way:
it allows a perfect outline contour
it allows thin leading and trailing edges, with less wood showing through the tissue, so more realistic
It makes a stiffer surface

Disadvantages:
Takes more time compared to true built up construction
not suited for non-painted covering
might be a bit heavier

Hope this answers your question...

Not my idea of course, I just like to use it...

George

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Invader3
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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2020, 04:09:38 PM »

Thanks for taking the time to explain, George - I can see exactly what you're doing now, and you've shown me yet another technique I look forward to trying!

regards,
John
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2020, 06:14:37 PM »

Very nice work. Captivating indeed. I always enjoy your builds. Hope to learn something from your build as I have an unopened Aerographics Avro 504k waiting to be built. It's 22in wingspan.
Please, keep dazzling Grin

Rhys
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2020, 07:22:01 PM »

I am enjoying the build. I found a picture of a 504N dashboard. This was from a British picture book about aeroplanes and had no further information about that type. I wonder if it was an exhibit of the science museum, RAF museaum or Shuttleworth collection.
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Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
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kaintuck
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2020, 09:56:54 PM »

George.....I can help you out with theFokker F.II from 2016...I'll pm you my address, just ship it to me.... Grin
Btw, I'm now building #3 plane...a stints flybaby....
Marc
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g_kandylakis
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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2020, 05:12:01 PM »

John, you are welcome...

Rhys, the Aerographics kit is also in my very limited collection. But opened... I do not know if/when I might get to build it. So many other projects in the waiting line. Btw, my own collection consists only of the Comet Aeronca K, the Comet Stinson Reliant, the Comet Ercoupe and the Aerographics 504 and Sopwith Camel. Not much, I know... Lucky me, very few guilts.

Piecost, thanks, saved for when the time comes  Smiley

Marc, ok, but I need to find a suitable box, so it might take a while  Grin. Why would you want it, anyway?...


A short update...

Started work on the fuselage, instead of tackling my usual wings. There is a lot more to be done on the fuselage and I thought I 'd better start with it in case it becomes a drag later.

I wanted to keep the longerons and uprights to a scale cross section, as far as possible, so I chose basswood as the main material. This meant square 1,5mm on the front, thinner on the rear. Balsa would have been too weak, so I used basswood for the longerons and the front half uprights, hard balsa for the rest.

It took some sanding to get some sticks to exact 1,5x1,5, then it was time for fuselage side assembly.

The bottom longerons are curved so they were soaked and let to dry overnight on a form, to take the curve. Something like a one-iece lamination  Grin
They hold the form nicely, so less deformation likely to the fuselage.

The wood strips with  black lines are 3mm strips used to make sure the longerons are exactly aligned outside. One good thing about basswood is that you can push it harder than balsa and it will not get damaged...

So, two fuselage sides done...
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
Re: 1/20th Avro 504 N/O
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