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Author Topic: Modern F1B wings  (Read 885 times)
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WayneB
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« on: December 02, 2021, 11:37:17 AM »

Hello All,
Not building one but interested in how the modern F1B wings are made. I think it’s Rohacell foam with a carbon skin, but don’t know if there is a spar in it. Is it pressed or vacuum pressed or done in a mould or a combination ?
Are some still built D box etc ?
Purely out of interest as far to new to free flight to start thinking of F1a,b,c etc.
Thanks for any info.
Wayne.
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BG
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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2021, 11:21:27 PM »

Wayne subscribe to the "Free flight fanatic podcast" we just did an episode on this exact topic so you will get all the info you could want by listening to it. Should drop in a week or two.

BG
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2021, 12:13:27 AM »

While waiting for the podcast: yes there is a spar (about the same dimensions as with D-box wings). The skins are carbon, core is foam (probably Rohacell), and they are made in a fully-closed mold. This ensures accurate airfoil shape. With current 3D manufacture, the core can be milled to precisely the right size to fit the mold, and milling the molds from metal is reasonably prized these days, so people can make more molds for smaller series of wings.

But there are D-box wings still.


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WayneB
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2021, 02:55:53 AM »

Thanks BG, never heard of these pod casts before so will be sure to check it out.
Thanks Tapio, good info thanks.
I may be new to free flight, but guys like Jan Henning build dlg radio gliders and did these videos on YouTube if interested on how they build and skin there wings. They are in German but a picture is worth a thousand words if you know what I mean.

https://youtu.be/p5BsfmUrtDM
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WayneB
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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2021, 04:13:13 AM »

Just listened to most of episode 10 BG, Enjoyed it. I did enjoy your description of being in a F1B competition all sounds very hectic. Look forward to exploring more.
Regards Wayne.
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BG
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2021, 05:35:19 PM »

Glad you enjoyed it.  Grin
BG
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Boo
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2021, 01:34:28 PM »

While waiting for the podcast: yes there is a spar (about the same dimensions as with D-box wings). The skins are carbon, core is foam (probably Rohacell), and they are made in a fully-closed mold. This ensures accurate airfoil shape. With current 3D manufacture, the core can be milled to precisely the right size to fit the mold, and milling the molds from metal is reasonably prized these days, so people can make more molds for smaller series of wings...
So, am I right to guess that the core is solid, not two thin layers with cf cloth on either side and a hollow in the middle ?

Boo
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WayneB
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2021, 04:07:19 PM »

Hiya Boo, Only just finding out but that’s what it looks like. Lots of the r/c discus launch gliders are made that way, but not all are cnc milled out. The video link I put up shows how some do it.
Hopefully we can find out more.
Regards Wayne.
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Boo
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2021, 07:08:23 PM »

Hiya Boo, Only just finding out but that’s what it looks like. Lots of the r/c discus launch gliders are made that way, but not all are cnc milled out....
From my very limited understanding, Rohacell foam can't readily be wire cut so I guess that has a bearing. You would think tnat 2 thin skins of Rohacell could be moulded with glass facings separately then trimmed and glued together as a CNC-free option though... ?

Boo
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Tmat
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2021, 06:43:21 PM »

Hi Boo,
None of the current F1B wings are made of thin, hollow sheets of foam. They are all made from solid cores of Rohacell (or similar) foam typically CNC milled to shape. There are a few people hot wire cutting some Rohacell cores. Tricky, but doable.
Many of the spars are actually made from carbon rovings laid into rectangular slots cut into the top and bottom of the cores.
The skins are typically 30 gram/sqr/meter spread tow carbon and sometimes 20 gram for the tips.
Molds can be CNC cut plastic or Aluminum.

However, as Tapio mentioned, there are still Dbox wings being made as well.

Tony
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Boo
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2021, 07:05:31 PM »

None of the current F1B wings are made of thin, hollow sheets of foam. They are all made from solid cores of Rohacell (or similar) foam typically CNC milled to shape. There are a few people hot wire cutting some Rohacell cores. Tricky, but doable.
Many of the spars are actually made from carbon rovings laid into rectangular slots cut into the top and bottom of the cores.
The skins are typically 30 gram/sqr/meter spread tow carbon and sometimes 20 gram for the tips.
Molds can be CNC cut plastic or Aluminum...
Thanks Tony, slightly off-topic I know but would you happen to know whether the carbon skinned F1A glider wings are made in the same way ?

Boo
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Ployd
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2021, 09:41:32 PM »

A few have been done the same way but majority of F1A wings still use a carbon skinned Dee box with a balsa/carbon or full moulded carbon spar (different structural requirements needed) plus carbon capped balsa ribs and carbon trailing edge.

Ployd in OZ
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Tmat
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2021, 06:19:19 PM »

Thanks Tony, slightly off-topic I know but would you happen to know whether the carbon skinned F1A glider wings are made in the same way ?
[/quote]

Hey Boo,
Yes they are made the same way. The skins are heavier spreadtow (often TexTreme) and of course the spars are far, far more robust than needed for F1B. But Rohacell cores and carbon skins in female molds.

Tony
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tshin_ho
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2021, 11:18:49 PM »

Have there been any 3D printed F1A wings? It seems practical to do, with lightweight PLA structure, reinforced with carbon rods for bending and diagonals for torsion.

Tet Shin
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2021, 12:14:09 AM »

The launch loads in F1A are far too large for carbon rod reinforcements. Typically sportsmen first sprint as fast as they can on launch, then (intentionally) fall down holding on the towline, thus putting their full body weight on the line and onto the wings for maximum force on the launch. Thus very rigid wings, with a strong spar and lots of torsional stiffness, are needed.
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DerekMc
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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2021, 12:29:01 AM »

Thus very rigid wings, with a strong spar and lots of torsional stiffness, are needed.

Even then, they sometimes go "BOOM"
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Derek
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2021, 01:56:18 AM »

Thus very rigid wings, with a strong spar and lots of torsional stiffness, are needed.

Even then, they sometimes go "BOOM"

Really seldom though. Typically they go BOOM following some previous damage into the structure, not properly fixed.
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tshin_ho
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2021, 06:32:49 PM »

Good morning, and thank you for responses about the strength requirements.

If carbon rods are not strong enough, we could use carbon tubes for F1A. The same would apply for F1C. But for F1A there should not be problems with rods.

However, please let me rephrase the question to: Are there commercially available 3D printed wings for free flight competition models?

Thank you in anticipation

Tet Shin
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Ployd
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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2021, 09:44:38 PM »

The short answer is no and I doubt that a 3D printed wing would be strong enough to handle the stresses and flight loads imposed during the launch and transition stages of the flight.
As for the spars, hollow tubes just don't cut on modern FAI models; acceptable for classes like F1H and E36.

Ployd in OZ
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dosco
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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2021, 08:37:24 AM »


I continue to find, with amusement, the obsession with 3D printing as "the answer to everything."

While it has certain advantages, it isn't a magic bullet.

I apologize for my cynicism. Bright new shiny widgets are always awesome and fun.

-Dave
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Tmat
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« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2021, 04:39:17 PM »

However, please let me rephrase the question to: Are there commercially available 3D printed wings for free flight competition models?

Tet Shin,
There are currently no commercially available 3D printed wings for Free Flight competition models. The issue would be weight as to try to match the stiffness to weight of carbon fiber sandwich materials (carbon/balsa or carbon/foam) is currently not possible with 3D printing materials currently available to small businesses or home machines. I have seen 3D printed wings for RC models and while they do look very nice, they are far too heavy for Free Flight models.

Tony
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WayneB
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2022, 03:22:28 AM »

Doe’s anyone know when Free Flight Addict’s pod casts s releasing the next edition as mentioned by BG in a previous post.
Cheers Wayne
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