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Author Topic: CO2 Duration Anyone?  (Read 8728 times)
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algy
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« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2010, 10:28:25 AM »

Hi Paul.

Gee if the Telco engines you have were used for indoor duration events you should have some well sorted out motors. Plus with a set of just about impossible to get original spares and custom made folding props you are well taken care of.

I have various articles in my Aeromodller magazines for making the folding props and others for duration events plus the ultimate CO2 engine tuning article by Steve Phillpot. But I believe that quite a few people at the time wrecked their motors by being to enthusiastic. I never tried it cos I just fly for fun. Also have the" Aeromodellers Engine Tests" on them.

I did tell you that CO2 engines love being oiled a lot but forgot to mention not to oil them through the cylinder ports. They do not like it. That is in the manufactures instruction sheet. Likewise never try to start any Gasparian motors with the piston top dead centre. They do not like that either. Things might bend and there will be tears before bedtime.

Welcome to the club. Sounds like you are hooked on them now.

Cheers

Algy
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« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2010, 05:54:38 AM »

Hi guys

Okay the midnight oil took a bit of a hammering and I've still got to strip/sort the engine, but that aside she's finished ready for testing Grin

AUW is 48gms with a 60% CofG (No charge)

The pop up wing and tail both work off the same band stretched across the DT fuse just to the rear of the pylon. I can move the stops (U shaped pins glued in the fuz side) to change the angles should it be necessary: Currently they are wing at 55 and tail at 45 degrees. Shocked

I really like this as a set up and look forward to seeing how it works in action.

The Tank is a push fit in a rolled paper tube glued through the fuz which has light glass cloth from under the red tissue. The motor is fixed to a 32nd ply face plate with 2 self tappers (Once the thrust line is sorted a blob of glue will stop these unwinding - we hope)

I may add a wire whisker under the nose to act as a prop/propshaft saver... oh and the bug hasn't been fitted as of yet; it's position will depend on where the balance needs to be after testing. For the moment it can be taped to the pylon.

I've found a useful article about refurbishing these Telco's... now where's that tray?

Not entirely convinced yet Algy - but they're kinda cute.

Name for this beastie is CO2CAN Cheesy

Cheers
Paul
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« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2010, 10:15:23 AM »

It's looking good! Does this mean that you'll be flying it on Saturday......... after all, you were saying that the rounds were for trimming Cheesy

I've sent you an e-mail regarding coiled pipes - just let me know. On the refurb front, I'm not sure whether this is mentioned in the refurbishing article, but the best way to check for leaks is to charge the motor (sans prop of course) and stick it in a bucket of water - obvious innit! It's surprising where CO2 can leak out and the stream of bubbles is a perfect tell tale!

The weather's looking good for the weekend - see you there.

Toodle pip

Peter
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« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2010, 10:56:42 AM »

Well let's say that I'm taking it with me at least Grin

(Plenty of other stuff to play with on Saturday... if it is nice and calm I'll maybe try to boost the numbers for you) Wink

Thanks for the offer of the head/pipe combo. Yep the article did mention the bucket - good idea.

Here's the duration props that were in the box . Diameters @14-16" Shocked

The hub is a rivet and they aren't especially light - apparently the flywheel effect is important on this size. A small piece of shirring elastic folds the blade back.

I'll see if I can find details of the models which were of polystyrene reinforced with balsa and looked like overgrown EasyB's. Times were 12-14minutes I think, flying up to the catwalk in Cardington...

Off to play with a bucket of water
Paul
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« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2010, 04:47:45 AM »

IT FLIES Cheesy Cheesy

Good news first is that it flew off the board which is always nice. Whilst testing the motor at home I used several sparklet bulbs in the various chargers and managed to waste at least half of them because of poor 'piercings' etc. Sad

Saturday was breezier than forecast (14-18mph on average) so hardly ideal conditions for a new model.
Salisbury Plain is a bit of misnomer. The flying site itself is on a plateau with vast areas of open countryside running off in all directions and is used for tank training by the army. The 'Plain' itself is steeply rolling/ridged grass land with cattle and trees scattered about to provide additional interest. Retrieving is a hard foot slog for even a 2 minute flight... a long thermal flight can take hours to get back in breezy conditions.

The CO2 comp itself was a bit of a disappointment entry-wise, but provided a lot of experience in flying these little buggers. Once airborne they seemed quite happy, but the lack of power/thrust provided some excitement as they battled to climb through the turbulence.

Memo's to self - Freezer spray doesn't neccessarily help (3rd flight I over froze the tank with the resultant slow spitting run and a submax flight) Embarrassed

The special, (and not so special Gasparins), give a noticeable performance increase with motor runs close to the 2minute max in some cases. Shocked Pop up wing and Tail DT's are the business for these small models - a nice flat and quick descent back to mother earth Smiley

More prop/motor testing required...

(Incidentally I fixed the loosening bit with a bit of epoxy in the end since I discovered the bottom of the crankcase was, errr, kind of missing!?! Huh Motor didn't seem to mind so a qiuick and dirty repair at least got the model in the air) Wink

Off to rummage though my bits to put together a new motor

Paul
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algy
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« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2010, 12:11:38 AM »

Hi,

Paul good to hear about you adventures on Salisbury Plain. My father trained there during the war. You inspired my to get out a CO2 model I built about twenty five years ago and have been flying for fun off and on since. I have also just uploaded the plan together with building instructions to the "power section" of Outdoor Free flight if you would like to make one.

It is taken from the September 1980 issue of Aeromodeller and is a CO2 Nats Winner by Ian Dowsett. You will find it a rather "Busy" plan cos a lot had to fit on two normal size magazine pages. Seem to remember there is slight fault with the wing tips matching up but it was no problem to sort out.

Mine was very easy to trim and flew beautifully right from the start. You will need the D/T.

I still take it out occasionally on those rare calm cool sunny days just to enjoy watching it circle slowly and silently over head with the sun shinning through the tissue covering. Have attached three photos i took yesterday.

Some notes to help. Mine weighs 68.1 grams ready to fly but could easily made lighter. The C/G is 2/4" back from the main spar . There is no need to beef anything up. It is more then strong enough.

Enjoy.

Cheers

Algy
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« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2010, 02:39:35 AM »

Nice looking & nicely built model Algy.

What's the motor - the cylinder head looks rather like a Modella as opposed to a Telco?

You were spot on when you said calm sunny days for flying. Paul was (is) suffering from post competition angst, but his model flew nicely from what I saw. Salisbury Plain is not the best venue for CO2 models, as there is normally a fair amount of turbulence and the wind direction meant that we weren't far away from the "Valleys of Doom". By way of an explanation, the wind tends to follow the contours, and unless you get a good bit of height, marginally powered models get sucked down into the valleys and out of sight (they then fly another half a mile in another direction and leave you searching for hours Grin).

The winner was using a G160 powered model set up by Ing Gasparin himself, so I'm told. The lust run coupled with good air meant that the model climbed well (and the owner had three 2 mile retrieves on foot Cheesy)

I'll have a look at the plan in a mo, thanks for adding it.

Peter
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« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2010, 05:29:10 AM »

Hey Algy, ya forgot to light the fuse! Grin Hope it didn't go bye-bye.

Nice model, tho! I'd build one for my Modela if I had the place to fly it or a car to get somewhere.
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« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2010, 10:35:14 PM »

Hi,

Thanks for the comments Peter and Pits. Yes you observed I did not have the D/T fuse lite. It was a total calm coolish day and I was very careful just to give low powered motor runs and a gas charge only. Even then when i increased the power very slightly it started to climb to a height and gave a long walk. I was mainly trying to get some nice flying shots with my new digital camera.

I made a small mistake with the details I provided. The C/G should be 3/4" back from the main spar not 2/4" as I put.

Just to sort out what motor I am using. It is actually a little bit of a hybrid that I created.

It is really a UK made standard Powermax "Shark" that was on the market in the 70s but with a different cylinder fin/head. The "Shark went of the market but a short time later another CO2 motor appeared. It was called or made by Overlander I think. It used the bottom half of the Powermax "Shark" ie: the crankcase and crankshaft etc but the top part was of the Gasparian design with a small "O" ring for a piston seal.

By all accounts it was a very nice little motor but did not stay on the market for very long. It also had newly designed metal cylinder fins and a Gasparian type method of coupling the CO2 gas feed pipe to the head. A much better way to go. I obtained one of the newly designed metal cylinder fin heads from Sams in the UK for a trial. It ran a great deal better so ordered more and put them on all of my Powermax "Shark" motors. So that is what you see. A "Shark" CO2 motor with the "Overlander" fins.
Why it should run so much better I do not know. Do not understand the physics of it. The internal parts of the motor are unchanged. It just does. Have attached a photo of the engine in the Swift. You can also see that it has upthrust as discussed in an earlier post.

Hope that helps

Cheers

Algy
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« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2010, 10:57:18 PM »

Hi,

I have attached a full page ad by Powermax for their range of CO2 motors that were on the market in the 1970s. They produced everything you would need including a much larger CO2 gas cylinder with special adapter and were a great company to deal with.

The motor I am using in the Swift is at the top. The PMS1 Shark.
 
I also have a PMS5 Shark Twin ,one taken from the assembly line and sent to me in Australia. It is still virtually new, is powerful and runs beautifully.

Enjoy the nostalgic vibes.

Cheers
Algy
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« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2010, 04:20:45 PM »

I did tell you that CO2 engines love being oiled a lot...
Algy

Cheers for that Algy - it was a straw that I was clutching at yesterday after a bit of a frustrating trimming session Smiley

Perhaps I should say first that I've now installed a GM120 which was NIB before I got my sweaty mitts on it. Although heavier than the Telco I was able to move the tank further back to maintain the same CofG without too many problems. (The standard tank that came with the engine was too large for our comps and so I've swapped it for the permitted 3cc) In the workshop I was getting runs of 50 - 75 seconds Cheesy Cheesy

On the field the first check flights revealed a tight spiral until the power decayed whereupon it climbed slowly (no real surprise since the engine gives far more power and has a bigger prop) A small gurney to give some washin and a reduction of the right rudder improved things. There then followed about 18 flights without any great improvement; various changes but no great climb. Best eventual trim was a steep launch to the LEFT of wind so the model turned into wind for the first power burst (very Zeri!) and being a bit breezier than I would have liked the model was travelling a fair way in the minute or so that it was in the air Undecided

Time to get back to the ranch for a re-think (I did remember Algy's comment and had forgotten to take the oil with me!)

Sure enough adding lube had the motor back up to @ a minute (on the field the last run was only 25 seconds) Shocked

I also found that I wasn't always getting a full charge of CO2 so I need to make up a tool to support the charging nozzel when applying the charger...

Any need to run these motors in?

Lots of stuff still to learn, but we're on the right track now and hopefully once these teething problems are out of the way it'll be fun rather than a bit frustrating Wink

Paul
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« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2010, 11:01:43 PM »

Hi Paul,

Good to see you are still experimenting with CO2 engines. Yep they do like a bit oil every four or five flights. Actually I did a slight modification to my Shark motors to make it easier to oil them. I drilled a small hole (1/16"th I think) into the crank case at the base of molding that the cylinder head screws into. Then I use a old hypodermic syringe to "Inject Oil" into the crank case. The hole is easily drilled with the drill bit in a pin vise. Go slowly and no damage will occur. Makes oiling so much easier and impresses the opposition.

Gasparian engines already have such an oil hole designed into them. I was rereading an article on CO2 from the January 1980 issue of Aeromodeller and it seems that the makers of the Shark engines, Powermax, were recommending that a drop of medicinal castor oil be injected into the ports before each flight and the crankcase be half filled with the same oil after every couple of hours of flying. Must stress this is for the Shark/Telco engines. I do not think that Gasparian recommends injecting oil into the ports at all. Different set up there.

Of course, when I was young a heavy dose of castor Oil from Mum always used to give you a "good run for your money" so I guess it works the same way on CO2 engines!! Very moving.

I have just scanned the full article into a PDF file from the 1980 issue which gives an interesting state of play of CO2 engines then. If you want it send me your email address.

Cheers

Algy
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« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2010, 02:49:10 AM »

Paul

Glad to hear that you are still playing with the models - a few points:

I inadvertently misled you regarding Ted's model at the London Gala, he was actually using a GMW 73, so I'm not surprised at the good climb out and 2+ minute motor run; especially if Gasparin has set up the motor. The G160 is more powerful, but the motor run on 3cc is under a minute.

I've found that the motor improves with running, and suspect that it's the O ring/cylinder fit that improves.

Another way to oil the motor is to unscrew the tank, put a few drops of oil in it, re-seal, and run as normal. This method was in an Aeromodeller awhile back. Thinking about it, I suspect that it's most important to lubricate the cylinder and piston as these parts will be 'scrubbed' by the CO2 passing between the head valve and exhaust ports. The crankshaft is operating in a more benign environment and should need less frequent oiling.

What prop are you using now?

...and finally
Quote
I need to make up a tool to support the charging nozzel
what's your left hand for then? Grin

TTFN

Peter (recovering from a hot & windy day at Barkston!
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« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2010, 06:01:41 AM »

Thanks guys

I didn't think of using some castor Algy (I use it for my rubber motors so I did have some with me!) It's getting more difficult to find on the shelves of Chemists - I suspect you have the reason why Shocked

Nice idea about oiling through the tank Peter - something I'd never thought of. I'm presently using a piece of thin wire to spot some oil in through the lubricating ports which seems to work well.

The prop is the red (Modella?) that the GM120 came with which seems to chuck out a fair bit of power (I was using the same one with the Telco; eventually trimmed it a bit to try and improve the climb.

I'm finding that the little doodads that you need to hold are a bit of a fiddle and easy to twist when you are applying the pressure (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it) Wink

Nice to hear you had fun at Barkston (presume you were F1Qing?) Hopefully the sunburn will get better soon Cheesy

Cheers
Paul
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« Reply #64 on: June 30, 2010, 01:55:35 PM »

Paul

On the prop front I can't remember what I used on my 120 FAI - which was lost (nicked?) at Little Rissington. I may well have used the standard Modella prop. Others to try are the Gunther 8" and the GWS 7x6 and 8x6. They all have quite a lot of blade area which is good given the low revs.

I've now recovered from Barkston where I came 2nd (and last Cheesy). I've also been trimming at Chobbers in the heat, and this went well for once. Are you going along to the Dreaming spires do for a bit of vintage glidering?

TTFN

Peter
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« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2010, 03:17:23 PM »

Cheers for that Peter and congratulations Cool

Nice to see you have managed to lay the Chobham thing to bed - I seem to remember you had a bit of a torrid time last time you were there

I was hoping to get to Port Meadow for a spot of glidering and maybe a few longer trimmers of this kite... we shall see (the rest of mon famille are a bit off colour at the moment so I may have to forgo the pleasures of the canal/trees/river/railway/cows/horses etc.) Roll Eyes

See you soon
Paul
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« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2010, 12:53:07 PM »

As a final twist in this tale - took the Co2 can flying for the 6th area event on Sunday afternoon Smiley Undecided

Oiled the engine - Check
Charged the tank and ran the engine - Check
Refilled the now cooled tank - Check
Lit fuse DT - Check
Found nice patch of lift to launch in - Check
Watched in exasperation as model stooged around at 4 feet off the ground for 37 seconds - Check Angry Shocked :'(

Arrrrgh! as they are fond of saying in the Beano. Need to add one more thing to add to the pre-flight list for these little blighters... turns out the locking ring had loosened allowing the engine revs to drop off (hence less power) Embarrassed

Needless to say sorted this for the next couple of flights and off we went for two easy maxes - live and learn I suppose.

On a brighter note I acquired a bundle of engines from another club member so now have to build a bunch of new model for 'em (all suggestions welcomed) These include 5 more Telco's (with 'turbo tanks'), a couple of Modella's and a Shark twin that appears unused. Cheesy

Cheers for now
Paul
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« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2010, 10:43:24 PM »

Hi Paul,

good to hear about your CO2 exploits in the UK. You have been very lucky to score a wonderful collection of Telco CO2 motors from a fellow club member.They are now rarer then hens teeth. You will find the Turbo tank version runs well. It is a standard motor but the gas physics of the tank do actually work and give a longer more powerful run. But they can develop a gas leak around the safety blow off valve. I easily fixed mine though using a few wraps of Teflon tape. There is gas version of that tape but the standard version seems to work just as well. I also fixed one that leaked with Araldite. Maybe a bit naughty but there are two other "O" rings that will blow if the pressure builds up.

I have two of the Turbo Tank versions left and had to use Araldite inside them after a crack developed in the thread that the large retaining screw screws into. Plastic fatigue??. Tightening the retaining screw too much?? I am not sure. But would not advise screwing them down really hard. The "O" ring there does the gas sealing not how tight the screw is. You can learn from my possible mistake.

Just an update on the large Sodastream cylinders, which are the way to go for recharging. I went to a store here just last week to swap over my old cylinder for the new type. The old ones were made from steel and the new ones, now made from aluminum and larger, are very much lighter. But the bit that gave me a little bit of a scare was that the thread is longer. I use the K&P charging nozzle adapter (no longer on the market but spares still available) and was not sure if it would still fit and gas seal. Not sure about the new threads on the Sodastream cylinders in the UK but here in Australia it is exactly the same thread, just more of it. AAAAgh it did not seal and there was a lot of gas fizzing about and rude words from me. But after some thought and experiment an easy solution was found. It was not sealing because when screwed fully home there was no sealing pressure being put on the "O" ring inside the adapter. So I simply got another "O" ring and cut it in half. and put it also inside the adapter against the existing "O" ring with the cut edge facing out. When screwed onto the new Sodastream gas refill cylinder it sealed as it should and all is well. You may have already worked this out in the UK but hope it helps.

Cheers

Algy
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« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2010, 02:54:43 AM »

Thanks Algy

I got an adapter for the SodaStream bottle, but found the same thing so I've been using the little cartridges recently (All the gas leaked out of the big cylinder!) I'll try the O ring trick when I get a new one.

Cheers
Paul
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« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2010, 03:20:51 AM »

Hello Paul

From memory, the instructions advise that the adapter should be removed from the Sodastream bottle at the end of each flying session. I've always done this and have yet to deplete a bottle other than through normal use.

The bad news is that Sodastream is changing the bottle thread to a square(ish) section, and no more of the existing type will be available from summer next year. I'm told that some shops can no longer get those with the thread we use. Allegedly this is to give commonality with the EU design (and make a load of Sodastream drink machines obsolete Angry).

I understand that Derek Knight is looking at producing more adapters to suit, so we need to incentivise him to do this.

Peter
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« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2010, 05:55:32 AM »

Hi Paul.

Wow that is gloomy news about Sodastream changing it's thread size to meet EU designs requirements. Gosh what did the UK join? I am certain it was not for the dreaded "Eurosausage". Do hope that the threads do not get altered on the Australian gas cylinders. We have just gone to the latest longer version here.

Still good to hear that Derek Knight might put out a new charger adapter. He would only have to alter the thread size because the adapter its self is a great little unit. Mine gives no problems. He still carries spares cos I bought some direct earlier this year to put in stock.

Please keep us up to date with the latest news. I might even phone Sodastream here in Australia and see what their plans are.

Cheers
Algy
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« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2010, 11:36:42 AM »

Chaps

This is the message from Sodastream posted on a home brewing website:

"The 35 litre cylinders are going to be discontinued. We have changed the thread of the cylinder to one, which is compatible with machines sold and used throughout the rest of Europe. The decision to make this switch over is driven by our concerns about waste and the environment. We have found that over the years that the unique thread that was used in the UK has caused wastage of large quantities of machines due to obsolete stocks, consumer mobility and many other reasons. The unification of the UK market with the rest of the European standard goes a long way to eliminating that waste.

Unfortunately there are no stockists of these in the Beaconsfield area. You can purchase these direct from us, please visit http://www.sodastream.co.uk for details.

As a valued SodaStream customer we would like to offer you an upgrade on your drinksmaker to one of our latest modern designs with a choice of 2 colours for a special price of £15.00.

This offer does not include gas cylinders or carbonating bottles, these can be purchased separately.

The new 3 thread 60 Litre cylinders are £18.99 each this includes £8.99 for the gas plus £10 for the User Licence fee, which is refundable when exchanging.

You can exchange your existing cylinders for the new type and receive a full or partial refund of the User Licence Fee. The refund amount depends on the type of cylinder you have.

Refunds are only applicable when exchanging cylinders. Should you wish to return unwanted cylinders for recycling no refunds are due.

The cylinders will be delivered direct to your door by courier. Using the same packing your full ones arrived in and the pre-paid label provided, send your empties back to us via your local Post Office FREE of charge (always get proof of postage). Once received back the cylinders any refunds owing to you will be credited back to the card you originally paid with.

This type of cylinder is available from Lakelands stores and Independent stores. Please call our customer care line or visit http://www.sodastream.co.uk for your nearest stockist."


Thus the thread is different, and the cylinder size has increased, but at a much higher price. The cynic in me says that this is a move to benefit the manufacturers, and that the poor customer pays as usual.

I understand that some US CO2 flyers are using paintball gun canisters, and it would be helpful to know whether there are adaptors available, from whom and how much. Can anyone help please?

Yours gloomily

Peter
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« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2010, 09:18:21 PM »

Hi Pete,

Thanks for posting the interesting and disturbing news from the Sodastream Website. I sent an email of last night to Sodastream to clarify the situation here in Australia in regard to new cylinders with a different thread. They still have not replied to me. We seem to be luckier in this country then in the UK in regard to exchanging our empties. They are available from two major supermarket chains plus most heardwear stores. Pick up your milk and paper and you CO2 gas!!.

Aeromodeller published an article in the 1980s on making your own charging adapter via any small local engineering firm using the original Telco/Shark charging nozzles. I got one made up and it was not expensive (in the 1980s) and although looking a bit agricultural it still works well. I just don't use it anymore because of the excellent D. Knight unit. I am not sure if I posted it up here or sent it to someone via an email. I could find and post it again if any one wants the "do it yourself" as a PDF file. Of course any engineering you use would need the tech details on the new thread.

Yep people do use the paintball gun canisters. I saw something about it on the web but not sure of the details.

The new cylinders would be quite large. Have to push them around the flying field in a babies pram! Cue very bad one line jokes from the rest of the flyers. I would refuse to name the Father.

Cheers
Algy
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scrubs
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« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2010, 09:59:09 PM »

Chaps
....

I understand that some US CO2 flyers are using paintball gun canisters, and it would be helpful to know whether there are adapters available, from whom and how much. Can anyone help please?

Yours gloomily

Peter

I'm using the GMot adapter that Blacksheep sells (http://www.blacksheepsquadron.com) on a 12 oz paintball canister. They're not cheap, $90!!!! I got mine from the guy that supplied blacksheep a while back for $25. $90 is highway robbery but they have the market cornered here in the US I guess.

bill
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« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2010, 03:18:11 PM »

Okay Guys looking towards the winter build list and I'll build a replica of the CO2Kan which, now I've got a better grasp of the motors, should do okay for next season. I've got a spare GM120, but I need another smaller (3cc) tank for it. This used to be available as a spare and was I think fitted to the GM63 as standard. I've tried Pauline (Flitehook) and SAMS to no avail... any idea where I might get 1 or 2 from? Undecided

Tanks (sorry couldn't resist)
Paul

Incidentally the 120 I bought has a throttle (?) attachment on the lock ring so It'd be nice to replace that with a standard one whist I'm at it.
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