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Author Topic: Winders, winding stooge, torque meters, winding methods  (Read 39320 times)
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Olbill
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« Reply #150 on: September 10, 2010, 04:31:49 PM »

Lakehurst trip was a bust. 2 days in the hangar watching the wind blow and then one flyable day on Monday. My LPP fell a couple minutes short of the Cat 4 record.

OTOH the torque meter worked great. The only problem I had was remembering to turn it on before I started winding. Even that's not a big problem. Since the input shaft hardly moves you can just unhook the motor, turn the meter on, put the motor back on and keep winding.
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Olbill
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« Reply #151 on: September 19, 2010, 12:58:31 AM »

Here are some pictures of the first digital torque meter of the production design. A few details will be cleaned up but this is basically what you'll get. The overall size is 3" wide x 4 1/4" long x 1 1/8" high.
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Art356A
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« Reply #152 on: September 19, 2010, 01:55:03 PM »

Since the input shaft hardly moves you can just unhook the motor, turn the meter on, put the motor back on and keep winding.

It's easier than that. Pick the arm up off the sensor, turn the scale on, put the arm back down.

a.
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craig h
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« Reply #153 on: September 19, 2010, 02:40:08 PM »

Your torque meter looks nice and definitely high tech in my eyes of view. So are they going to be offered to the public?

Craig h
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Olbill
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« Reply #154 on: September 19, 2010, 03:20:18 PM »

Your torque meter looks nice and definitely high tech in my eyes of view. So are they going to be offered to the public?

Yes but not quite ready yet. Also I don't think we are supposed to advertise for sale items here so when a couple of changes are worked out I'll put an announcement in the right place.
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Olbill
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« Reply #155 on: September 19, 2010, 03:24:06 PM »

Since the input shaft hardly moves you can just unhook the motor, turn the meter on, put the motor back on and keep winding.
It's easier than that. Pick the arm up off the sensor, turn the scale on, put the arm back down.
a.

If you do that you will be ignoring the weight of the arm and any preload on the arm. In my case the reading would be .05 in-oz higher than the actual torque. For sport flying this might not be a problem. For competition it probably would be a big problem. For instance, an EZB in a high ceiling site might be launched at .10 in-oz or less. If the meter is reading .05 in-oz too high then you could be launching at half as much torque as you want.
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Art356A
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« Reply #156 on: September 19, 2010, 07:33:18 PM »

I didn't take into account how overbuilt yours is. My arm only adds .0035 oz/in. and I'm only a sport flier anyway.

My scale has a 100gm (3.5 oz) capacity so the light construction is okay for it. You might think about a counterweight for yours. What's the max on your scale, and if it will support Moffetts and Wakefields what do you have in mind for either mounting the whole model on the device, or making a winding-outside-the-plane system?

a.
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julio
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« Reply #157 on: September 19, 2010, 08:33:30 PM »

Your torque meter looks nice and definitely high tech in my eyes of view. So are they going to be offered to the public?
Yes but not quite ready yet. Also I don't think we are supposed to advertise for sale items here so when a couple of changes are worked out I'll put an announcement in the right place.


Olbill, I'm not either an expert nor a pro. I don't build as often as many modellers here. I'm not into competition also. So please take this as a humble and constructive opinion. Taking your words "but not quite ready yet" (to be offered to the public), do you think possible and helpful that the display of the torque meter could be set at an angle (45ยบ or more) facing the modeller while winding the motor in order to have a continuous reading even from a "long" distance? Do this make any sense or your experience with this device demonstrated not necessary such a thing?

Don't take it bad please, just trying to give a positive input.

Regards
Julio
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Olbill
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« Reply #158 on: September 20, 2010, 12:30:28 PM »

Julio

The angle of the scale readout is a problem that I'm aware of. It doesn't have a simple solution. As Tapio pointed out elsewhere the numbers are most easily read when your eye level is perpendicular to the display. If you move your eyes "above" that line the numbers fade out at an angle of around 25 degrees. If you move your eyes "below" that line the numbers are still readable at around 45 degrees before being blocked by the lower edge of the display. On my first meter I discovered this effect when I mounted the readout at about 60 degrees and couldn't read the display when I was all the way in and making the final torque adjustment. I took that one apart and remounted the display as flat as I could get it which was around 45 degrees. The meter became usable at that point.

For the new meter the display angle is limited by the space below the rubber hook. I've worked out a fairly simple way of mounting the display at a 15 degree angle. Going to a steeper angle than that would require using a larger channel and an extensive redesign.

I realize that some people will see this as a limitation. It's not a problem for me because I don't use the torque meter until the last part of the wind. My normal winding method is to stretch to 5 to 6 times relaxed length, put in 50% of the expected number of turns and then use mostly the feel of the rubber to gauge how fast I come in. Close to the end of the wind when I'm at most a couple of feet from the winding rig I'll start depending on the meter to finish up the wind. With the meter display at a 15 degree tilt, the meter at 30" from the floor and my 6' height I can read the meter from a distance of around 7 feet.
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« Reply #159 on: September 21, 2010, 02:58:31 PM »

If you do that you will be ignoring the weight of the arm and any preload on the arm. In my case the reading would be .05 in-oz higher than the actual torque. For sport flying this might not be a problem. For competition it probably would be a big problem. For instance, an EZB in a high ceiling site might be launched at .10 in-oz or less. If the meter is reading .05 in-oz too high then you could be launching at half as much torque as you want.

I launch my EZB at .08 in-oz, so I need the accuracy at the low end. .05 in-oz error might be okay for penny planes (or outdoor) but not for anything else indoors. Even .005 in-oz error is too much for EZBs, in my opinion.

Thanks, Bill. Can't wait to get hold of one in my hands!

-Kang
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Art356A
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« Reply #160 on: September 28, 2010, 03:08:32 PM »

This is all done. A laterally adjustable layshaft eliminates the idler/tensioner wheels, and the necessity for precision fabrication beyond the scope of the home workshop. There's NO friction, nor is there pulsing from the reed switch (which earlier ones had a little of).

The counter, which isn't quite on the market yet, handles 10KHz input, so I set it up to count the actual output on the hook shaft. The fastest I can crank it, which is never done in real life, is .006KHz. For the advanced flier, who winds tight and then backs off, snap the red switch down and it counts backwards. It has 8 digits...we only need 4, but you can't always get what you want. But if you want 2450 turns and then back off 500, you don't need to remember how many times that 500 dial maxed out; just read the display (which, BTW, is 5/16" high).

This version is a little longer than the early ones, so you'll need a second foot of chain @ $6, but the winder still comes in at less than $30 plus a bit of s & h. The reed switches should run about $3 and are in stock at your local burglar alarm installer. The counter will be $32 and includes a 10 year lithium battery.

My winders have all been 1:20, but they can be made in any ratio you want.

art.
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Tmat
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« Reply #161 on: September 28, 2010, 03:49:03 PM »

Are you planning on selling your winder Art? (he asks pleadingly...).

Very nice by the way and I love the see through plexiglass to look at the internal workings. Very cool!

Tony
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Art356A
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« Reply #162 on: September 28, 2010, 07:28:23 PM »

Right now I have to make some new drawings so Chris Stoddart can do a Beta Build, after which, if he completes it successfully, it might get published in FFQ. The original intent was to run it as a tutorial on SFA, but there hasn't been much interest in it over there. I feel bad about that, as I'm moderator of "Tools and Techniques". I think PFFT would probably run it, too.

I've had a lot of help from Bill Carney, Joshua Finn, and especially Orville Olm (the GizmoGeezer) and I have to acknowledge their guidance and encouragement, without which I probably wouldn't have gottten this far.

I'd enjoy doing a short run of them, especially if I can make up some templates so I could mechanize things a bit, but I don't begin to know how to price them. Parts and material costs are as I've quoted here, and my only savings there would be cutting a little s&h by buying 40 sprockets at a time instead of 4. I'd save 2 bucks per counter if I bought 10. The plans builder would need to buy two $6 lengths of chain to get the necessary 13.6 inches, and I could make ten winders with 12 lengths.

Mostly, there's a full day of (enjoyable?) work to make one, and that's after having built 8 or 10 of them. The first ones took two days. It's like Alan said... he can build a Minislick in a day but it took two years for him to teach himself how.

So I dunno, how does parts, mat'l, packaging and posting plus $50 sound? Should put it in the $110 area delivered.

I suppose I could run up a batch once I know Trumeter's production schedule for the counter. Having played with a prototype 7111 I don't even want to think of going back to any of the others I've tried.

a.
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Olbill
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« Reply #163 on: September 29, 2010, 03:21:09 PM »

$110 is half of what the only other available 20:1 winder costs.

I think it would be a good idea to have some sort of cover on the open sides to keep fingers and other stuff out of the gears.
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Tmat
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« Reply #164 on: September 29, 2010, 03:38:45 PM »

The price sounds good to me too.

Let us know when they might be available and when I can get my name on the list (when there's a list). 20:1 sounds good to me.

Bill, is 20:1 what you would want for indoor duration work?

Tony
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Art356A
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« Reply #165 on: September 29, 2010, 04:04:12 PM »

The thread went quiet for a while; I thought everyone had sticker shock.

Bill, in keeping with my principles of simpication and parsimony, the stray finger of which you speak so negatively is the BRAKE. It goes on top of the third sprocket. The STOP, on the other hand is that piece of .047 wire on the back side. You just push it in until it engages a spoke. A slight CW turn of the crank disengages it with a nice audible snap. It works wizard. As for dirt, gears need protection from it, chains not so much.

I don't like making comparisons. It's not polite. That said, if you stop in mid-wind to watch a pretty girl walk by, or to order your latte, and then you go back and look at your winder, you won't need to wonder whether it's registering 1750 or 2250.

Art.
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« Reply #166 on: September 29, 2010, 04:16:45 PM »

Art,
I was just about to inquire about a brake. Seems like you have thought of it already. I assume that the aluminum angle on the front is the mount to attach the winder to the base after winding?

I can see it now, Art's see through high tech winder and Bill's electronic torque meter working together in unison....

Tony
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« Reply #167 on: September 29, 2010, 07:14:08 PM »

I may need to get my name on the list as well.... it's really nice!
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Art356A
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« Reply #168 on: September 30, 2010, 10:55:07 AM »

Tony...

Go check out reply #100 on page 4. There's the whole thing set up with an earlier version of the winder. If you go back through the whole thread you'll see the original one, and then some changes that were made to address concerns about the thrust bearing (the first one had a ball thrust bearing). These "improvements" were later deleted and this last one is simpler than the first and works just as well. The thrust bearing on the current version is the nylon spacer tube against the aluminum frame with a couple of little washers in between.

The original thought was to rig something up cheap and fast to calibrate a couple of disc-and-wire meters that I had made. Then I realized that the scale is always in the field box anyway, so why not use the calibrator as the meter?

Tapio and Bill made theirs more sophisticated, but, hey, that's them. My idea was to come up with an apparatus that was quick and easy to make by anybody, using materials at hand, and that cost nothing. But, hey, that's just me. I hadn't intended it to be 1000 times more accurate and readable than the normal ones in universal use, that just happened.

A.
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Olbill
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« Reply #169 on: September 30, 2010, 12:44:46 PM »

Concerning the torque meter:

I used up all my first order of aluminum stock making mistakes. More should be coming in a few days. I'll put selling details in the For Sale section to keep from running afoul of the forum rules.

If you should decide to order one please don't expect something like Ray Harlan or Wayne Johnson would produce. My machining skills are not very good and my drill press is a cheap one from Harbor Freight that holds drills but otherwise doesn't have much to recommend it.

What I will guarantee that you get is a meter that works exceptionally well and that should be very durable.
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ykleetx
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« Reply #170 on: September 30, 2010, 02:12:28 PM »

So I dunno, how does parts, mat'l, packaging and posting plus $50 sound? Should put it in the $110 area delivered.

I would like to get the winder without the digital counter. How much would that save from the $110 price?

-K
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« Reply #171 on: September 30, 2010, 02:24:40 PM »

Why would you want a winder without a counter?

Tony
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Art356A
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« Reply #172 on: September 30, 2010, 03:28:19 PM »

Two good questions.

Basically, all the labor is in the winder, and the counter ($32) just gets slapped on with a couple of strips of 2-faced tape, so there'd be no huge saving. Let me go back on that a little. No mounting bracket (easy to make), no sensor ($3 and just glues on w/ epoxy) and no rotor (a little labor in that one). So I dunno...$40-$45 less?

Right now I'm working on drawings for my Beta Builder. Why don't you wait for them and build your own? Part of the purpose of the design is that it can be easily fabricated by anyone who has the skills to make a model to wind with it. I'm about there now.

Art.
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« Reply #173 on: September 30, 2010, 04:08:43 PM »

Why would you want a winder without a counter?

Tony
-just inquiring minds... Huh

Well, when I wind, I won't be ordering latte nor will I be looking at the pretty gals ...

And, as a personal preference, I like the look of the mechanical winder by itself.
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« Reply #174 on: September 30, 2010, 04:15:52 PM »

To each his own of course. I just think that at some point you will want a counter and why not get one to begin with?

I've been distracted and lost count myself. I like a counter.

Tony
-but that's just me... you're mileage may vary!
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