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Author Topic: Winders, winding stooge, torque meters, winding methods  (Read 38019 times)
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RolandD6
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« Reply #225 on: August 02, 2012, 07:58:48 PM »

Very neat job Shadow

I have bits an pieces lying around to something similar but never get around to it although I have investigated some counters (not the OMRON H7EC) but was concerned about their maximum counting frequency. Must look again and look at sourcing an OMRON H7EC.

Fitting a brake should not be difficult but what about a built in torque meter as well  Grin Grin Grin

Paul
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_shadow_
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« Reply #226 on: August 02, 2012, 09:06:26 PM »


.....but what about a built in torque meter as well  Grin Grin Grin


Now that would make it into a cool tool now wouldn't it?  Tongue Grin Grin Grin As of now I'm happy with the torque meter sitting on the table!

Regards
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« Reply #227 on: August 06, 2012, 05:28:10 AM »

Twins!...15 & 10 ratios.

Regards
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« Reply #228 on: August 07, 2012, 12:12:45 PM »

Guys,

I need some enlightenment......as I scroll through the pictures, there is a scientific calculator on every table along with the log book, winder and torque meter. Can someone please let me know what is the scientific calculator used for?

My apologies if the above question sounds like a newbie...I am!

Thanks.

Regards
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jakepF1D
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« Reply #229 on: August 07, 2012, 03:34:20 PM »

I use a calculator to find the average RPM after a flight.  I also use a calculator to figure out the weight of a 1/4 motor spacer when I'm too lazy to do the math in my head.  The calculator app on my phone works fine for this simple math.
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_shadow_
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« Reply #230 on: August 08, 2012, 11:11:46 PM »

I use a calculator to find the average RPM after a flight....

How?.... Wind it up, hold the model, and take RPM using a tach every 15s? then calculate average?

Thanks in advance.

Regards
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jakepF1D
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« Reply #231 on: August 09, 2012, 12:50:51 AM »

I put the motor back on my winding setup to count how many turns are left after a flight.  If I launch with 1600 turns and land with 100 left at 30 minutes, then my average RPM is (1600-100)/30=50.
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Olbill
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« Reply #232 on: August 09, 2012, 06:27:53 PM »

I do it the lazy person's way. I keep all my data in a spreadsheet on my HP Mini. The spreadsheet tells me what torque and turns to expect from the motor and after the flight it calculates the average rpm. The file goes into a Dropbox folder so when I turn on my Mini at home the updated file is copied to my home computer. All the data from all of my flights is available in the spreadsheet. I have a separate file for each class I fly but it could also be done on separate sheets in one file.
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Ron_P
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« Reply #233 on: August 09, 2012, 10:41:09 PM »

Bill,

Is that HP mini a calculator or a pad?
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Olbill
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« Reply #234 on: August 09, 2012, 11:42:18 PM »

It's a netbook computer. The one I have now (Mini 1104) has pretty much all the capabilities of a regular laptop except for the 10" screen. It fits in the top of my toolbox and the battery lasts thru a whole day of flying.
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_shadow_
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« Reply #235 on: August 10, 2012, 01:19:58 AM »

Another newb question....

Why do we need to know the RPM? What does it tell?

Thanks in advance!

Regards
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mkirda
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« Reply #236 on: August 10, 2012, 10:30:02 AM »

RPMs will give you an indication of how long a maximum flight could potentially be.
i.e. 1000 turns @ 100 RPM average = ten minutes.

With a given plane you can go thinner, pack more turns, use less pitch (higher rpm) and try for peak time.
Alternatively you could go thicker, less turns, more pitch (less RPMs) and see if it gets you higher times.
At a certain point it is all about total power, torque and propeller efficiencies for a given height ceiling.
At least in this newbie's limited understanding.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
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Olbill
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« Reply #237 on: August 10, 2012, 10:59:04 AM »

Mike has it right. If you read my last posts in the F1L section you can see how important rpm is to reaching a goal time.

For F1D's or any other class using VP hubs the rpm's are normally taken at a number of points during the flight to gauge the rate of change of the VP. This is usually done with a stroke watch. With a stroke watch you set the watch to time a certain number of revolutions of the prop (strokes). In my case I usually use 10 revolutions which is the default setting. So you start the clock and then stop the clock on the 10th revolution. The watch calculates the rpm for you.

The stroke watch can be used on non-VP models as well since the rpm will be changing as the torque goes down. For my events about the only one where I can count the revolutions is F1M. For the others the prop is turning too fast for me to keep count and I just rely on the average rpm.
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Art356A
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« Reply #238 on: August 16, 2012, 09:27:28 AM »

Idle thoughts about winder and torquemeter hooks.

The hooks we normally see are shaped kind of like prop hooks (3/4 circle or the like) despite the fact that they deal with a very different set of challenges.

On a plane, the motor runs slack and sometimes falls off the hook, causing a CG shift which wrecks the glide. Or, the motor bunches up around the prop hook wreaking all sorts of mischief, for which we've devised the reverse-S and the Czech hook and variations.

None of this applies to winders or torque meters. Seem to me that the most effective hook shape here is a simple 110º-120º bend, with the resultant tang pointing upwards on the torquemeter and the braked/locked winder. You can remove the o-ring, Crockett hook, or what-have-you easily without breaking either your wrist or the model.

On my winders, I use a simple U-shape with the hook running back parallel to the shaft about 1/4", then bend the shaft back slightly so the pocket of the hook is lined up with the shaft axis. It's easy to slip the motor off it, but it won't come off on its own.

a.
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« Reply #239 on: August 18, 2012, 11:56:59 AM »

I recently acquired a Wilder winder and have decided to use it instead of my Geauga winder. There were 4 problems with this plan - replacing the Wilder torque meter with a plain hook, no mounting foot, no brake and no counter on the Wilder. I've solved all of them except the brake. If anyone has any ideas about that I'd love to hear them.

One of the goals of the mods was to have them removable so that any future owner might be able to restore the winder to close to original condition.

Here are some pictures of the modifications. I found a pedometer at the grocery store for $8 and bought a reed switch at Radio Shack for about $4. I soldered wires from the reed switch to the terminals in the pedometer where the swinging weight had been located. The reed switch came with a housing that made it too big to mount under the crank. After removing the housing it was still too big so I mounted it crosswise on the winder case and glued the pedometer on top of it. This was pretty ugly so I cut a piece of plastic from the unused part of the pedometer case to cover up most of the reed switch and to strengthen the whole assembly. A small magnet on the crank closes the reed switch as it goes by and triggers the pedometer.

The mounting foot was cut from some aluminum channel and fits the mounting bracket on my winding setup. I made it to attach to one of the original case bolts. This required a slightly longer bolt but I had that on hand.

The most expensive part of the changes was replacing the Wilder torque meter that came on the winder. I bought a new shaft coupler and made a winding hook for it. The coupler cost $14 with postage.
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Olbill
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« Reply #240 on: August 18, 2012, 01:56:05 PM »

Idle thoughts about winder and torquemeter hooks.

The hooks we normally see are shaped kind of like prop hooks (3/4 circle or the like) despite the fact that they deal with a very different set of challenges.

On a plane, the motor runs slack and sometimes falls off the hook, causing a CG shift which wrecks the glide. Or, the motor bunches up around the prop hook wreaking all sorts of mischief, for which we've devised the reverse-S and the Czech hook and variations.

None of this applies to winders or torque meters. Seem to me that the most effective hook shape here is a simple 110º-120º bend, with the resultant tang pointing upwards on the torquemeter and the braked/locked winder. You can remove the o-ring, Crockett hook, or what-have-you easily without breaking either your wrist or the model.

On my winders, I use a simple U-shape with the hook running back parallel to the shaft about 1/4", then bend the shaft back slightly so the pocket of the hook is lined up with the shaft axis. It's easy to slip the motor off it, but it won't come off on its own.

a.

Art
Next time you post something like this could you do it a little sooner - like before I make a mistake? I made a round hook for my Wilder which I'm not sure I'm going to like.
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_shadow_
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« Reply #241 on: August 18, 2012, 02:07:21 PM »

Art wrote to me about this sometime back and I made the mod to the hooks on all my winders soon after!  Grin

Regards
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jakepF1D
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« Reply #242 on: August 20, 2012, 05:34:37 PM »

I've solved all of them except the brake. If anyone has any ideas about that I'd love to hear them.

Bill,

I have what I think is a pretty nice solution for the brake on my Wilder winder.  I use a small plastic spur gear that has the same ID as the shaft coupler's OD.  It also happens to use the same size set screw so I used a long enough set screw to hold the spur gear in place while also locking the shaft.  I attached a piece of 1/32" music wire to the upper screw on the winder that is bent in such a way that light pressure allows the winder to turn freely.  If I let go of the music wire it will grab the spur gear.  The beauty of this setup is that it will allow me to continue winding hands off because it ratchets, but it won't allow the motor to unwind.  I've had fully wound LPP motors on it with no problems.

It's hard to describe completely so I'll post pictures of my winder later tonight.

Jake
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Olbill
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« Reply #243 on: August 20, 2012, 09:06:37 PM »

Thanks Jake
That sound like a pretty easy solution. I've made a brake from a wedge of rubber that slides under the output shaft and holds it by friction. I'm going to try it this weekend. If I don't like it I'll be looking at what you've suggested.
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jakepF1D
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« Reply #244 on: August 21, 2012, 02:33:39 AM »

Here are a few pictures of my setup.  I'm not sure where I got the gear, but it shouldn't be too hard to find one that will work.
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Olbill
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« Reply #245 on: August 21, 2012, 07:18:43 AM »

That looks good Jake. That's a really slick looking mounting foot. Is that from Wilder or did you make it?

Here is my rubber brake that I cobbled up when I should have been working. It's attached to the mounting bracket with 2 screws thru a slot in the bottom of the plate. Pushing it to the left (right in the picture) lets the shaft turn freely. Pushing it to the right locks the shaft by friction. The torque from a wound motor pulls the wedge shaped block tighter under the shaft (theoretically - I haven't tested it with a motor yet). Of course one drawback is that I need my table for the system to work, but I drive to most competitions anyway.

The winder looks "upside down" b/c I need for the output shaft to line up with my digital torque meter.
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Art356A
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« Reply #246 on: August 21, 2012, 10:08:21 AM »

I was thinking about a ratcheting stop, but couldn't figure out anything that wouldn't affect the motor feedback.

Bill, do you feed your counter with crank or hook turns? Most converted pedometers or calculators can't handle hook speed, which can run to 60Hz, although nobody ever actually winds that fast.

Shadow and I discussed the possibility of remoting the torquemeter readout to the winder. I was thinking of a light cable running a little longer than you ever stretch the motor out (wireless would be preposterous). He felt that the voltage drop would mess up the readings. I'm not very electronical, so I'm not qualified to render an opinion on that.

A.
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« Reply #247 on: August 21, 2012, 11:29:06 AM »

Bill, I made the foot from some angle aluminum.  I cut it to a shape that centers the output shaft on my winding stooge.

Art, I only use the ratchet feature on mine when I'm adding the last few turns.  It works really well for that.
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« Reply #248 on: August 21, 2012, 11:35:19 AM »

You're already hobbled with a low voltage, so any wire running more than three feet would have to be quite hefty.  A thin wire (electronically) acts like a choke, so you want the thickest practical x-section for...don't know the max distance for stretched indoor motors.

There ARE tables that list cable/wire resistance and voltage drop/x-distance.  Shadow might know where to look.
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« Reply #249 on: August 21, 2012, 11:37:06 AM »

Wireless is not preposterous. In fact it's super cool! Cool Grin

Tony
-come on Art, you know you want to ...
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