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Author Topic: Winders, winding stooge, torque meters, winding methods  (Read 41615 times)
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jakepF1D
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« Reply #250 on: August 21, 2012, 12:02:56 PM »

Shadow and I discussed the possibility of remoting the torquemeter readout to the winder.

I'm not sure I understand why this would have any value.  Torque readings will fluctuate wildly during winding based on how far you have the motor stretched.  I don't pay any attention to torque until after I've hooked my winder base into my stooge where the proper hook to hook distance is achieved.
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Olbill
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« Reply #251 on: August 21, 2012, 01:13:59 PM »


Bill, do you feed your counter with crank or hook turns? Most converted pedometers or calculators can't handle hook speed, which can run to 60Hz, although nobody ever actually winds that fast.


I measure crank turns. I think in crank turns also and all my data is in crank turns.
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_shadow_
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« Reply #252 on: August 22, 2012, 08:32:27 PM »

Wireless is not preposterous. In fact it's super cool! Cool Grin

Tony
-come on Art, you know you want to ...

Yeah, I think if it could be made wireless, it will be totally cool....however the cost would be unjustifiable. I have used the digital torque meter and the LCD is bright and it's easily read, even from 10-12 ft away.

Regards
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Dave Andreski
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« Reply #253 on: October 18, 2012, 10:16:14 AM »

You're welcome!
Glad you've found a new perspective.
Dave Andreski
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rogermorrell
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« Reply #254 on: October 18, 2012, 11:54:43 AM »

While not indoor .... for whatever it's worth Rene Limberger did a very custom winder counter and torque meter that displays wirelessly on to an i-phone [naturally because it's Rene] for Igor Zilberg, a German F1B flyer. Zilberg had extra requirements with respect to other F1B flyer because he has some models with very long, for F1B, motor runs. I think he uses a 10 to 1 winder. There was an issue of counting fast enough.

Roger Morrell
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Tmat
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« Reply #255 on: October 18, 2012, 12:36:32 PM »

I hear about that Roger. Very cool. But how does one look at the results on an Iphone while one is furiously winding? Was the Iphone mounted to the winder? Or to the stooge?

Tony
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rogermorrell
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« Reply #256 on: October 18, 2012, 03:16:26 PM »

Rene just built it - not sure where Igor put it, probably on the winder .  - Wait for the Magic Modelsport one, we are going for a heads up display or maybe audio output  ,.... :-). 

BTW I think he was going to use it for some kind of motor testing too.  What surprised me was that Rene said there was some difficulty in counting the turns.  I'm not sure why, it was partly to do with the 10:1 that Zilberg uses so is different from any other F1B flyer.  I have built an anenometer for Hot Magic Mk2 that counts quit high rpms so it should not be a major problem. Probably need to use Hall effect switches.

The Torque part is on my to do list.  The Malkhaysians made a stooge torgue meter for winding tube similar to the ones made years ago by Bob Wilder except they used a digital scale to show the reading. It works OK but is hard to read and the scale turns it self off at inconvenient moments.  Grandson Wes has one but we need to practice more with it. I think Rene used a load cell with a precision rotary encoder to measure the torque.  I was thinking of a large , bright LED readout that could be read from a distance while winding. Failing that it would put a radio driven readout on the winder.  I have done soem radio stuff like that already.  I would not do an i-phone because of the commerical difficulties in working with Apple.

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Art356A
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« Reply #257 on: October 18, 2012, 03:33:33 PM »

FWIW, the counter I use will take 10K Hz, and the $4 reed switch 60K Hz according to the manufacturers. That last sounds a little outlandish to me, but it's also irrelevant. So Hall effect sensor technology might not be necessary.

a.
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« Reply #258 on: November 03, 2012, 11:06:42 PM »

Digital Torque Meter inside Chain Gang Winder - Concept / Theory

Guys,

This is an idea (credit to my flying buddies who contributed to the concept), please study the pictures....here is how it should work.

To wind rubber, the plunger (black bolt) is pushed, this moves the torque arm disengaging it from the output shaft. To get the torque reading after the wind or in between, letting go of the plunger engages the torque arm to the output shaft. The torque arm will then press against the load cell (black colored block at the bottom of the winder). The LCD read out can be fastened to the top of the counter. The torque arm here doubles as breaks.

If the counter's rotor is longer, this can be used as a torque arm too!

To get this working properly, there are a few things that needs to be ironed out but I'd like to hear comments.

Regards
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« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 11:20:36 PM by _shadow_ » Logged
Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #259 on: November 05, 2012, 03:01:22 AM »

For indoor winding, I like to torque meter that can be read all the time, so that I can follow the torque while winding in the final turns. As a matter of fact, I would like to have such unit for outdoor (F1B) winding too, there I currently have the twisting-piano-wire -torque meter between the winder and the rubber, so that I need to stop winding to read the torque. I have been thinking (for years!) if the torque could be read somehow from e.g. sideways load on the prop shaft, but obviously there are considerable complications with the sideways loads during the winding. Anyway, somehow the torque is affecting the sideloads on the winder shaft bearings, right?

 
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_shadow_
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« Reply #260 on: November 05, 2012, 03:52:26 AM »

I rely on the number of counts to bring the rubber to its max instead of torque and use torque for launch.  Is using the torque to determine the max winds rubber better than using counts? does it matter? (I'm still learning)

With the way the concept winder is done, there is no way in getting continous reading of the torque.

Also, is the torque reading on the winder really needed? Worth the extra effort/cost? Any real advantage over the one the table?


Regards


« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 05:49:21 AM by _shadow_ » Logged
jakepF1D
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« Reply #261 on: November 05, 2012, 12:22:10 PM »

I have two goals in mind when I'm winding; torque and turns.  In my mind torque is completely irrelevant until the motor is at the proper hook to hook distance.  When the motor is stretched you can change the torque reading dramatically just by moving in and out.  So for me I focus on turns until I clip my winder to my stooge.  That's when I achieve proper hook to hook distance and I begin paying attention to torque.  I've never felt like knowing the torque midway through a wind had any value.  That's just my opinion and others may disagree.
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Art356A
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« Reply #262 on: November 05, 2012, 02:14:23 PM »

Shadow, we have to pay attention to people like Tapio and Jake, because they know, and we don't. At least I don't. Not yet, anyway.

Right now, here's my thinking. I've thinned the winder down to a hair under 1.1", enabling me to use stock hardware rather than make my own thru bolts. This looks like it adds another bay to the unit, which adds another frame, six more spacers, a new configuration hook shaft, and probably juggling the hookshaft bushings. And having to shop-build all the screws again. Nothing insurmountable, but is it worth the effort and expense?

It's like the autosubtract I'm working on. No idea what it would cost once it's finally working reliably, and would it be worth it to anyone? I'm starting to doubt it.

 art.
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« Reply #263 on: November 05, 2012, 02:58:35 PM »

Quote
I like to torque meter that can be read all the time, so that I can follow the torque while winding in the final turns. As a matter of fact, I would like to have such unit for outdoor (F1B) winding too

Tapio

A couple of years ago at Poitou, I saw what appears to be a torque meter built into the stooge, but wasn't able to speak with the owner to find out how it operated. I did take a couple of photos though which may give you food for thought. I assume it's based on a spring or coiled wire as per the Eastern European winders, but I'm sure you can figure something out.

Sorry for going outdoors on the indoor topic Wink

Cheers

Peter
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Tmat
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« Reply #264 on: November 05, 2012, 03:40:53 PM »

Bob White and Walt Ghio used to have stooged mounted torque meters used when winding their Wakefields. I recently saw Evgeny Gorban with a stooge mounted torque meter and even more recently Carrol Allen. Now that almost all F1B flyers wing outside of the model (except Tapio!) using the ubiquitous half tube system, a stooge mounted torque meter is quite practical I think. In fact I'd much rather have the torque meter mounted on the stooge than on the winder, even if I didn't have to stop the winder to look at the torque (as I do now). I would not even look at the winder until I was right at the end of the winding process.

Tmat
-ok back to indoor winders/torque meters  Grin
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« Reply #265 on: November 05, 2012, 05:07:56 PM »

At the 2011 US Nats, Sevak Malkhasyan was using an interesting stooge-mounted torque meter. The half-tube locked into a pivoting fitting mounted on the stooge. An arm projected out and was connected via a short cable to a digital pull scale. Only problem might be difficulty in reading due to glare on the scale. I think I have a photo somewhere and will try to dig it up.

Related to all this, I have finally figured out a way to carry all the ground support equipment for F1B/F1G.  It's a tactical short double gun case from Drago Gear. Item # 12-301BL. I ordered it from cheaperthendirt.com, about $80.

The case measures about 12 x 36 inches and has a large divided center compartment designed to carry two short rifles, or, in my case, two stooges, winder, thermister pole, etc. There are large pockets on one side and shoulder straps on the other. This is mil.spec swat team gear made from ballistic nylon, so it should hold up. I got mine in black to match my model box cover. But they also have a tan color. Should better the the assorted cardboard boxes and mailing tubes I have been using.

Louis
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« Reply #266 on: November 05, 2012, 05:34:41 PM »

Here is the photo of the Malkhasyan stooge-mounted torque meter. The half tube attaches to the turned aluminum cylinder at top, held in place with a pin. The cylinder is free to rotate under torque (probably ball bearings involved). As it rotates it plus the strap attached to the digital pull scale. A cable at the other end of the pull scale is attached to the stooge by a cable. This is the cable that is normally used to apply load to scale.

Perhaps it could be scaled down for indoor use.

Louis
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Art356A
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« Reply #267 on: November 05, 2012, 07:08:57 PM »

Elegantly simple.
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« Reply #268 on: November 05, 2012, 07:16:00 PM »

I have two goals in mind when I'm winding; torque and turns.  In my mind torque is completely irrelevant until the motor is at the proper hook to hook distance.  When the motor is stretched you can change the torque reading dramatically just by moving in and out.  So for me I focus on turns until I clip my winder to my stooge.  That's when I achieve proper hook to hook distance and I begin paying attention to torque.  I've never felt like knowing the torque midway through a wind had any value.  That's just my opinion and others may disagree.

I agree with Jake - at least about 95%. I start worrying about torque when I'm approaching the end of winding. Several people have commented that they can't read the FliteTork meter when the motor is stretched out. I'm not sure what information they're looking for. When Kang was a "beginner" he told me I always watched my torque meter while winding. I told him it was just a habit. The only thing useful about doing that is that it might keep someone from asking you a question while you're winding.
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_shadow_
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« Reply #269 on: November 05, 2012, 08:56:10 PM »

This looks like it adds another bay to the unit, which adds another frame, six more spacers, a new configuration hook shaft, and probably juggling the hookshaft bushings. And having to shop-build all the screws again. Nothing insurmountable, but is it worth the effort and expense?
 art.

Actually, the setup can be installed outside on the left side of the winder, the load cell can be placed on the shoe of the winder, but the parts will be exposed however the process of disengaging the torque arm is made easy by placing it outside and since the torque arm works as a brake, it's doing 2 jobs at the same time.

I have ordered the smallest 100g scale that I can get from goodluckbuy.com, I'll 'retro' fit the bits on to the stock CGW and post pictures / video for comments.

As to whether it's worth or not....well, it depends on the users on what they want and what they are will to pay for such convenience!

The autosubract is a very usefull convenience which I don't mind paying for...as it helps to concentrate in winding instead of remembering to flip a switch if in case you forget it really messes up the counting especially if you are trying to get to the launch torque by backing off and up winding a few times!

Regards


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_shadow_
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« Reply #270 on: November 05, 2012, 09:20:27 PM »

On a seperate note, I recently got a mechanical counter which subtracts when reversed, seems to be the right size....will be fun trying to install this in a winder.

Regards
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #271 on: November 06, 2012, 02:37:12 AM »

Now that almost all F1B flyers wing outside of the model (except Tapio!) using the ubiquitous half tube system, a stooge mounted torque meter is quite practical I think.

Yeah, I'm working in that direction, already have a half tube and some back bobbins. However, decided to try to system on a P-30 first, and have found inserting the back bobbin in a reliable way not so easy... have gotten the full-wound motor on my hands on a couple of occasions. This is ok with P-30, but would be quite scary for F1B, so I still have some reservations on the system...

But agreed, a stooge-attached torque meter would be practical when winding the motor outside the model. Less so, if the meter would measure how the wind is rocking the model....
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Art356A
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« Reply #272 on: November 06, 2012, 01:59:53 PM »

On a seperate note, I recently got a mechanical counter which subtracts when reversed, seems to be the right size....will be fun trying to install this in a winder.

Regards

Where'd you get that Huh? Does it click over or is it nice and smooth? If it's smooth it can save me a ton of time and money.

Art.
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« Reply #273 on: November 06, 2012, 08:58:31 PM »

Art,

I bought it from ebay, US seller...the counter is made in England. I'll post more picture soon. It turns smooth, doesn't click and resets nicely.

Regards
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« Reply #274 on: November 08, 2012, 06:55:47 PM »

I have two goals in mind when I'm winding; torque and turns.  In my mind torque is completely irrelevant until the motor is at the proper hook to hook distance.  When the motor is stretched you can change the torque reading dramatically just by moving in and out.  So for me I focus on turns until I clip my winder to my stooge.  That's when I achieve proper hook to hook distance and I begin paying attention to torque.  I've never felt like knowing the torque midway through a wind had any value.  That's just my opinion and others may disagree.

I agree with Jake - at least about 95%. I start worrying about torque when I'm approaching the end of winding. Several people have commented that they can't read the FliteTork meter when the motor is stretched out. I'm not sure what information they're looking for. When Kang was a "beginner" he told me I always watched my torque meter while winding. I told him it was just a habit. The only thing useful about doing that is that it might keep someone from asking you a question while you're winding.

Stan Chilton wrote a well known article on how he winds.  He looks at torque pretty much the whole time while he winds.  His article is here:

http://www.indoorduration.com/INAVWinding.htm

I don't wind this way, but I look at torque during the second half of winding.  I pay close attention after reaching 50% of peak torque, when the motor length is still stretched to about 1.5 to 2X.

-Kang

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