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Author Topic: Winders, winding stooge, torque meters, winding methods  (Read 41897 times)
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ram
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« Reply #275 on: February 19, 2013, 12:16:41 PM »

Spent a few hours this weekend putting together some field equipment. It uses Arts winder and Olbill's torque meter. Wasn't sure how long a hook to hook distance I needed. I made it extra long, just in case.

 Rey
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tross
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« Reply #276 on: February 19, 2013, 12:23:14 PM »

Wow! Smiley
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Instructions: Step One...Assemble the pile of sticks shown in pic "A" to look like the model airplane shown in pic "B"........
ram
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« Reply #277 on: February 19, 2013, 03:59:04 PM »

Thanks, tross!

As a followup, what information should I include in a flight log?  I did a few searches and didn't locate what I was looking for. I did see where Olbill mentioned using a netbook.  I'm planning on flying primarily the non-scale events. ...if that makes a difference.   So far I've built a parlormite and an EZB for practice.  Both are paper covered.  Next up is a LPP covered in film.


Rey
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Art356A
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« Reply #278 on: February 19, 2013, 07:52:51 PM »

Here 'tis.

http://www.indoorspecialties.com/index1.html

Click "articles" on the left, and the flight log is the last selection.

Requires rather more discipline required than I can muster, and as a wise man once said, indoor is all about recordkeeping.
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My arms are so weak, it's like that pushup I did last year was a total waste.
Olbill
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« Reply #279 on: February 19, 2013, 09:58:38 PM »

As a followup, what information should I include in a flight log?
Rey

Here is a screen shot of my Excel spreadsheet. The calculations for max turns and max torque are below:

Formula for max turns (Wtmax):

=45.67*H70*SQRT(1/G70/J70)/20

H70 is the motor length
G70 is the number of strand in the motor
J70 is the grams/inch for each strand
20 is the gear ratio for the winder

Formula for max torgue (Qmax)

=((I70/H70)/0.11)^1.5

I70 is the motor weight
H70 is the motor length

(couldn't resist copying a good one!)
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ram
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« Reply #280 on: February 20, 2013, 09:54:16 AM »

Thanks Art and Olbill!

Is there any benefit to adding temperature and time of day to the logs?

Oh, and what is prop type on Olbill's spreadsheet?

Rey
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Olbill
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« Reply #281 on: February 20, 2013, 10:47:03 AM »

The prop type is just any kind of identifying nomenclature that makes sense to you. At USIC 2007 I had 2 F1L's - #1 and #2. I also had 2 props - #1 and #2. So 1/1 meant prop 1 on model 1.
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ram
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« Reply #282 on: February 20, 2013, 11:45:05 AM »

The prop type is just any kind of identifying nomenclature that makes sense to you. At USIC 2007 I had 2 F1L's - #1 and #2. I also had 2 props - #1 and #2. So 1/1 meant prop 1 on model 1.

That makes sense.

What does your motor weight include?  Lube, sleeves, o-rings, etc.? Or, is it a recorded weight before you've lubed and tied?

Rey
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Olbill
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« Reply #283 on: February 20, 2013, 01:59:34 PM »

Kang has given me a bunch of grief about this but my weight is for a ready to use motor with o-rings, lube and sleeves (for some events). It would be more accurate to use the bare rubber weight. I may start doing it that way in the future.

Another somewhat controversial thing is what rubber length you use for the calculation. A new, never wound motor will give one set of numbers. So should you go by that set of numbers for all future uses of that motor? I don't think so but that is just my opinion. The more the motor has been wound and the timing of those windings will make a used motor longer than it was when new. John Kagan has said that in his opinion a broken-in motor is just a motor that is longer than it was when first made. I agree with this thinking. I'm not sure that it is 100% correct but I think that it is at least close to the truth. So now, unless I am extremely rushed (or just lazy) I will plug in the actual motor length before I wind.

I use a netbook computer b/c it fits in my tool box and it runs all Windows programs - the chief one of interest being Excel. The recent ultrabook computers with 11.1" screens might also be good and compact but are pricey. A tablet that runs Excel without problems might also be a good choice. There's nothing secret or complicated about my Excel program so I would be happy to share it with anyone who needed it.

Another point is that all my flight data is stored in a Dropbox folder. Anytime I add to one of the files it is automatically updated for all my computers and my phone and so is available wherever I might be.
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ram
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« Reply #284 on: February 22, 2013, 01:35:14 PM »

Thanks, Bill.  Great information for me.  I'm going to try weighing without o-rings and sleeves.  It will be interesting to see how it affects the max torque calculation's accuracy in your spreadsheet.

Rey
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Art356A
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« Reply #285 on: March 02, 2013, 11:37:45 AM »

Further thoughts on hook shape...

I went back and reread #238 on page 10, and saw that where I had recommended a simple 110º bend for a torquemeter hook, I had also written something about using it on a winder, as well. But I never actually did it until a couple of days ago. It's really easy to use compared to a normal hook. The foto shows it in the up position, but if there's any tension on the motor at all, it doesn't need to be. With the prong pointing up it's easier to unload, though.

I think I'll make all the winders like this from now on. I'll leave the shaft a little long, in case the user wants to reshape the hook into a more traditional style. Some guys are old and set in their ways and lock themselves into counterproductive traditions. But folks like that are unlikely to buy a modern winder anyway.

a.  
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applehoney
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« Reply #286 on: March 02, 2013, 07:48:37 PM »

>Some guys are old and set in their ways and lock themselves into counterproductive traditions.

Eh?  What ... ?  Who  ??!    Nah ....   not me.


Well, maybe ....
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spacerod
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« Reply #287 on: March 02, 2013, 09:24:39 PM »

Art
 Great idea . I think I'll convert my winder and torque meter. I always have trouble
getting a wound motor off the round hooks.

Charlie Coeyman
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Olbill
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« Reply #288 on: March 03, 2013, 11:04:58 PM »

Not to be a wet blanket but I have a little problem with the hook as pictured. On a torque meter it wouldn't be a problem but on a winder I would want to make sure that the o-ring was seated in line with the shaft of the winder to keep from having a lot of vibration during winding.
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Art356A
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« Reply #289 on: March 04, 2013, 12:29:10 AM »

Nah, it don't happen. I was thinking of that too, so I paid a lot of attention to it while winding, and I couldn't provoke anything like that. Maybe with a big heavy motor stretched out far and wound really fast, so it would whip and flail around. Nobody winds like that, do they?

Remember also, that this winder is a very old one. It has an .063 shaft with an .032 hook cobbled onto it. If there's going to be any runout that would cause vibration, it would happen on this one. The current winders have an .032 shaft all the way out (usually 1.5") and they're so flexible that they'd be self-aligning.

a.
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Olbill
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« Reply #290 on: March 04, 2013, 12:26:32 PM »

It happens to me frequently if I don't get the o-ring on the hook straight.
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Art356A
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« Reply #291 on: March 04, 2013, 12:28:49 PM »

Here's a little lab work, using a current model winder. First, I took out the slight bend in the shaft that lines up the pocket of the hook with the shaft axis and bent it back the wrong way a little. Now we have the condition Bill was describing, but with many times the runout that we'd ever see in my original 110º straight-prong hook.

The second pic is at full blast released windback. 1000 turns in a couple of seconds. Now we can see how the centrifugal force from the whipping motor pulls the hook further off center. I can't see this as a valid problem for us, as the maximum speed we can wind with a 1-20 winder is 60 turns per second at the hook, and that's really cranking up a storm. At that speed, things are truly hopping around, but none of it is from the tiny bit of runout at the hook. What I thought might be a self-centering action from motor tension doesn't happen with a 1 1/2" hook shaft length. Oh, well, maybe with another inch or so it might. I don't think it matters.

The new winders are 25 grams lighter, all of it off the counter module, so they would be more sensitive to any vibration generated near the front end, as the mass to damp it has been reduced. But I can't feel vibes at anything like normal winding speeds, and normal for me is faster than normal for guys like Bill. Rotational vibration has many factors feeding it, the biggie being shaft speed, and we just don't reach those speeds in normal usage.

Still, the hook shape will be an option, and can always be changed by the user.

a.



 
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« Reply #292 on: March 14, 2013, 03:21:23 AM »

This is the shape of the hook on my CGW done after advise from Art356A.

Regards
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Ding
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« Reply #293 on: March 18, 2013, 09:18:05 PM »

I always wondered about this thought.  Would the dynamic torque be the same from either end of the motor both for winding and for energy release? Hmm!!  Undecided
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Olbill
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« Reply #294 on: March 18, 2013, 11:47:55 PM »

Yes.
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Art356A
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« Reply #295 on: March 18, 2013, 11:55:05 PM »

The motor is just a mindless column of twist, held captive on both ends. It doesn't know which end is attached to the prop and which to the airframe. It'll unload into the hook of least resistance. If you hooked one up to a torquemeter on both ends the readings would match.

IMHO

a.
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Ding
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« Reply #296 on: March 19, 2013, 02:22:53 AM »

I dunno but when I wind with the torque meter at the other end opposite the winding end the pointer is never steady. Doesn't that indicate some degree of variation?  Am of the belief that if the pointer waddles one way the other end might waddle the other way but not necessarily at the same time.  Could it be that the torsion in the MW is not also behaving linearly?
But I agree that on the average the torque by the rubber motor should normalize smoothly.  Hence a smooth RPM.
Ding Cheesy
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MikeM
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« Reply #297 on: July 21, 2013, 12:24:46 PM »

DISREGARD....i found this thread by Google search and didn't realize it was in the indoor section.........i'll post where it needs to be.



probably a common sense question here, but i am not one to be different other than i am making my own stooge with materials on hand.

in the picture i drew an arrow from ground to bottom of stooge (no this one is not mine)...........is there a correct height or common height?

and what is it?
http://images.rcuniverse.com/forum/upfiles/325061/Sq47133.jpg
Winders, winding stooge, torque meters, winding methods
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FLYACE1946
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« Reply #298 on: July 23, 2013, 02:16:41 PM »

 the base is up the pole around 35 inches. I am 5 feet 8 and 35 inches seems just fine.

Hope this helps.
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Art356A
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« Reply #299 on: April 08, 2014, 12:39:33 PM »

Ascent of the Chain Gang.

There aren't many of us, maybe 30 or 40, but we're elite.

Joshua Finn picked up the AMA Record F1D Category I record on Feb 22, with a 28:17 flight.

Kang Lee is the 2014 World Champ by a 50 second margin at Slonic, Romania. 
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My arms are so weak, it's like that pushup I did last year was a total waste.
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