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Author Topic: Winders, winding stooge, torque meters, winding methods  (Read 39771 times)
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Bredehoft
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« Reply #300 on: April 13, 2014, 12:40:15 PM »

Here are two torque meters I made to fit onto my venerable Wilder 10:1 winder. 

--george

Winders, winding stooge, torque meters, winding methods
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aramS
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« Reply #301 on: August 22, 2014, 04:05:36 PM »

Looking for a 120 inch-oz. Wilder torque meter. If you happen to have one gathering dust on a shelf or in the attic, it's an opportunity to find it a new home.
Also, someone has started replicating them, but my leads went cold.
Thanks,
Aram
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mkirda
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« Reply #302 on: August 23, 2014, 08:44:42 AM »

Looking for a 120 inch-oz. Wilder torque meter. If you happen to have one gathering dust on a shelf or in the attic, it's an opportunity to find it a new home.
Also, someone has started replicating them, but my leads went cold.
Thanks,
Aram

Dennis Tyson started making ones very similar to these.
I asked him to make me one to 120 in-oz too. He hasn't shipped it yet.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
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Bredehoft
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« Reply #303 on: August 23, 2014, 09:11:41 AM »

Aram,

I talked to Dennis Tyson last night and gave him your number.  He said he will call you.

--george
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aramS
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« Reply #304 on: August 24, 2014, 11:38:16 AM »

George and Mike,
Thanks for your help. Dennis got back to me and said he will be making a new torque meter that will measure up to 140 inch oz. perfect for F1Bs.
Aram
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USch
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« Reply #305 on: December 08, 2014, 12:37:01 PM »

Thanks folks  Grin Grin Grin
After an evening reading 13 pages about electronic torque meters I gathered enough info's to build my own winding stooge with incorporated torque meter.
Another happy reader !!! Will post pic's as soon as possible,

Urs
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rick121x
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« Reply #306 on: December 08, 2014, 04:59:12 PM »

I dunno but when I wind with the torque meter at the other end opposite the winding end the pointer is never steady. Doesn't that indicate some degree of variation?  Am of the belief that if the pointer waddles one way the other end might waddle the other way but not necessarily at the same time.  Could it be that the torsion in the MW is not also behaving linearly?
But I agree that on the average the torque by the rubber motor should normalize smoothly.  Hence a smooth RPM.
Ding Cheesy

When I first started with torque meters at the tail end of the motor, I too had the "waddling" pointer syndrome. I found that the waddle had to do with the apex of the rubber hook being not on center-line with the torque tube or on center-line with the bearing axis on a electronic scale setup. Once I took care of that alignment, no more "waddling". My gage and/or meter readings are smooth as silk.  

These days I use a gram scale exclusively.

And my winder fits nicely to the winder frame, so that I can view motor torque relaxation, with unwinding, with time, or with massage of the knots. http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=13705.msg100636#msg100636

Richard Ranney
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USch
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« Reply #307 on: December 11, 2014, 04:53:35 PM »

Here my work of the last week. The mechanics of the torque-balance is build into a U shaped bracket and a ground shaft runs in 2 ballbearings. Actually I made a fork to hold the model at the rear peg...but... trying the setup at home I realized that even a very small disalignment between the model and the shaft affects the output reading heavily. So actually it is of no real use other than having just a rough idee what happens. Different if used to measure only the rubber attached to the balance with a hook instead of the fork. I can get repeatable results. The alignment is always guaranteed, at least if the hook is well centered to the shaft.
I build a small 4 pin connector into the display housing to separate the mechanics from the display.
So winding the rubber already installed in the model needs some further thinking. The model would need to be precisely guided to hold aligned with the torque-meter, especially at the point of the rear peg!

Question: exist a way to determine what max. torque can deliver say 1mm2 of rubber, of course there is a difference between a batch and another. But just to have a starting point. Or due I have to destroy some motors to know the final torque?

Urs
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glue_finger
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« Reply #308 on: January 13, 2015, 09:09:39 AM »

Question: exist a way to determine what max. torque can deliver say 1mm2 of rubber, of course there is a difference between a batch and another. But just to have a starting point. Or due I have to destroy some motors to know the final torque?

Urs

I did see something about an excel sheet somewhere.  I'll see if I can dig it up.  

Wow, USch, that is a pretty cool gizmo!  I think I understand what you mean about misalignments.  Even with normal torque wrenches, extensions or anything that causes the transmission of force to be less than straight and center makes a difference.  

I have started making the kind of digital meter that rick made.  The problem with that, which you are apparently trying to solve, is that it's a little bit of a process for full fuse models...  Remove the motor, wind to torque spec, reinstall motor...  that last step is proving the most troublesome for me.  I made a stuffing stick, but sometimes there is little room to get the rear peg through the tightly bunched rear loops, so I miss and the whole thing unwinds back there.  Grin  Perhaps I need to start using rear hooks?  I'm afraid of what might happen to the model if a metal hook gets loose in there.   Shocked

It would be nice to have a meter in-line between the winder and the motor, so that the motor can stay in the model.  

EDIT TO ADD: 

Here are some discussions of formulae to figure your breaking points.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2273277&page=2

http://www.pensacolafreeflight.org/page5/assets/RubberMotorGettingMax.pdf
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« Reply #309 on: January 13, 2015, 09:31:31 AM »

Neat set-up, Urs!  How is the accuracy affected with the wheels of the RIVETS resting on the table?  Or is the fuselage bottom resting on a fulcrum?
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« Reply #310 on: January 13, 2015, 09:47:10 AM »

USch,
Your setup, while a handful on a fuselage model, should work well when winding outside the fuselage using a half-tube arrangement like Coupe, Wakefield, Open Rubber type models.

Alternatively, a winding tube made of sturdy aluminum which could take the strain of a wound motor, could be held by a yoke or cradle to keep it precisely aligned with the holding fixture.  A relatively large diameter rear tube could be slipped inside to be engaged by a smaller diameter cross tube.  This tube-in-a-tube method also resists rubber bunching at the rear of the model.

You are on track to eventual success.
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USch
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« Reply #311 on: January 13, 2015, 10:20:05 AM »

glue_finger,
the excel I found later in the plan gallery made by frash, it gives you max. turns and torque. For us european a little nasty but very helpful to have a starting point. I tryed to convert everthing into cm and g, but thats not my business.

Pit,
the wheels were the first stalling point. I put a polistirene block under the belly so the fuselage could rock and roll around on it. But the fuselage will never stay aligned with the torque-meters shaft and this alters heavely the output.

flydean1,
the Rivets has an inbuild error (as I wrote somwhere else even the big's can make errors). The rear peg is to far aft. That gives a lot of trouble when changing motor with different weights and does not allow to wind outside the model. I had to build my own burst tube to reach the peg without hampering the formers. Moving the peg one bay further would solve the problem, but there are the letterings and who wants to destroy them  Angry
But you make me hope that I have not to throw away everything  Grin

On the next P'nut I have a lot of details to improve  Wink

Urs
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glue_finger
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« Reply #312 on: January 14, 2015, 01:12:28 AM »

Made a really field expedient type  Cheesy analogue torque meter just to get a hands on feel for the concept.  I think the wire is .032", about 8 3/4" length.  The masking tape pointer only deflected about 20o before a single strand failure occurred in the 4 strand 3/32" motor.  Guess it would need a longer piece or thinner piece to deflect more.  Would a longer piece of the same gauge deflect more?  Anyway, the wire is held static to one end of the tube with rubber tape.  The foam dial is glued on with Elmers.   Grin  The good feature in my view is it could just hook between the prop hook and the winder and give a reading without removing the motor.  I guess you would want a blast tube in that case.  It would be necessary to stop winding and take frequent readings when it's getting close to failure since the dial spins while winding.  That should not be too hard to remember.  I'm starting to get a feel for when these small motors are about to blow out anyway, so it won't be too off-putting.  

Also shown is the torque arm and bearing for the digital scale type meter.  It's still waiting for a nice piece of lumber to call home.

Baby steps.  




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glue_finger
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« Reply #313 on: February 08, 2015, 09:26:44 PM »

More work on the digital and analogue meters.  I used an equation to relate torque, angle theta, wire length and diameter.  I made a wire twist meter to try to show one inch ounce at 270 degrees deflection.  Then I coupled it to my digital meter in development, and torque of about one inch ounce shows on the twist meter when the arm on the digital meter is about one inch long.  So far, so good.  Next, I destroyed two 1/8" two strand motors.  One broke at a little less than 1 inch ounce and one a little more according to the wire twist meter.  

Does anyone know if that is approximately correct?  Would a two strand 1/8" motor break at about one inch ounce of torque?  
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« Reply #314 on: February 08, 2015, 11:38:27 PM »

A 1/8" motor made from Tan 2 rubber should take close to 2 in-oz. From Tan SS it should take considerably more.
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« Reply #315 on: February 09, 2015, 12:07:10 AM »

Wow, so way off then.  This is Tan SS.  One loop broke at about 1.4 in oz, according to the digital readout, that was the highest.  Is it possible that a .020 wire hook is cutting the wire ahead of schedule? 
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rick121x
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« Reply #316 on: February 09, 2015, 11:00:03 AM »

Just a thought: Have you calibrated your torque meter with a known weight at a specific distance?

Richard Ranney
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« Reply #317 on: February 10, 2015, 12:27:04 AM »

I just did, since you suggested it.  Seems like the next logical step.  Who knows how much measurement error and experimental error is involved?  Anyway, I think it is closer to calibrated now than it was.  After hanging some weights from the rig shown, then setting the digital meter from the twist meter, the slider on the torque arm of the digital meter is about 31/32" from center of the pivot shaft.  I used lead weights in .25 oz increments to hang off of the wire twist meter at 1 inch from center to calibrate. 

I now find that the 1/8 motor bursts at about 1.8 in oz as measured on both meters.  They agree pretty well. 

These are new motors, not broken in at all.  Not sure if that would have them bursting a bit early? 

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« Reply #318 on: February 12, 2015, 11:44:06 AM »

I think this must be pretty straight now...  There is another equation to describe a wire torsion meter that includes coefficients for ranges of wire diameter.  When tallied by this equation, the physical pendant weight calibration matched to within 2 degrees of the theoretical angle of deflection.  I measured 240o deflection at 1 in oz and then calculated 238o.  This also matches with the readout of the digital meter with arm length at 31/32".  So, two physical methods in agreement with a calculated value.  I bet this is reasonably close  Smiley

Here is the source for that equation...  http://www.gryffinaero.com/models/ffpages/tools/torque/torquetech.html#calib
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Art356A
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« Reply #319 on: March 12, 2015, 10:39:34 AM »

A question for the Chain Gang: Does anyone use the subtract count switch when doing a windback? I incorporated it because the counter has a subtract capability, so the switch makes it accessible. I'm thinking now that most fliers count back by zeroing the counter at peak winds and then getting a down count. If that's the case, then the toggle switch is just a distraction and can be dispensed with. I hope.

art.
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« Reply #320 on: March 12, 2015, 11:41:50 AM »

Art,

I never use the subtract function.  Thanks.

-Kang
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« Reply #321 on: July 13, 2016, 05:31:44 PM »

I must have missed it but does anyone have a link to wire size & dial face for making an 0-.1 oz indoor torque meter?
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« Reply #322 on: December 30, 2016, 11:32:36 AM »

Is there a set wire length from the 90 degree bend to the scale its self? I have decided its time to make a torque meter, but I would like to use a standard scale as I fly everything from mini sticks to planes using 3/32 rubber and would like to not have to make 3 different torque meters. I am going to an event late January to fly primarily A-6, I made a flight earlier that broke the junior cat 1 national record without a torque meter and want one to get more consistent times as I am going to the same place to try and make some official flights.


thanks!
Ross
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« Reply #323 on: December 30, 2016, 12:02:45 PM »

Is there a set wire length from the 90 degree bend to the scale its self? I have decided its time to make a torque meter, but I would like to use a standard scale as I fly everything from mini sticks to planes using 3/32 rubber and would like to not have to make 3 different torque meters. I am going to an event late January to fly primarily A-6, I made a flight earlier that broke the junior cat 1 national record without a torque meter and want one to get more consistent times as I am going to the same place to try and make some official flights.


thanks!
Ross

Ray Harlans' torqur meter will suit you fine, here is the link.
http://www.indoorspecialties.com/index1.html
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« Reply #324 on: December 30, 2016, 01:29:46 PM »

Is it the one for Write stuff? I have looked at that but the tourque range seems a little high, it seems like it is for 1/8th and 3/32, the a-6 uses something like .34 thousandths.
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