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Author Topic: Winders, winding stooge, torque meters, winding methods  (Read 37950 times)
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Dan Snow
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« Reply #350 on: October 29, 2018, 09:59:03 AM »

Second step taken in converting a hand drill into a winder.  I cannot determine exactly how they attached the plastic handle to the drill frame so I'm leaving it in place and using it for now. At some point if I find the right size aluminum straps I will cut the plastic handle off and fabricate a handle similar to the one shown by calgoddard.

For now I have drilled through and inserted a 5/8" dowel, then locked the dowel in place with a #6 wood screw. This should be sufficient since I don't expect to be winding any 1/4" multi strand monster motors! Smiley
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USch
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« Reply #351 on: October 29, 2018, 02:02:30 PM »

Dan, if you dont know how the handle is fixed, drill a 2mm hole through handle (metal sleeve) and drill body and insert a piece of 2mm wire. See the foto with the arrow.
These drills are build to be in compression between drill body and handle during use. Instead you/we use them in traction. So the handle could eventually slip off with a damaged model as a result.

Urs
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Dan Snow
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« Reply #352 on: October 29, 2018, 03:33:02 PM »

You mean like this? Smiley  Good idea, Thank You.

A couple wraps of electrical tape will protect tender digits from the ends of the evil wire!! Roll Eyes

I figure it will show signs of loosening before it lets go, at which point I stop using it until I make the replacement handle. Currently the biggest motor I'll be winding is 4 17" strandsof 3/32"
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« Reply #353 on: October 29, 2018, 03:59:07 PM »

Well, could be done more pulite  Wink
Maybe with two self tapping screws with round heads Huh

Urs
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« Reply #354 on: October 29, 2018, 09:30:51 PM »

My first "real" winder was a cheap Stanley hand drill with wooden handle that threaded into the main body.  Had only one pinion as well.  Handle shaped like a broomstick.  Came apart on the first decent motor, 4 loops of 1/4 inch.  Model not damaged.  Spent the next 2 weeks lurking around flea markets and garage sales to find a drill with two pinions and a decent metal frame.  Made a proper handle but had to pin the whole thing together as the stretching force caused the main shaft to disengage from the pinions.

Went to a much bigger drill.  It was last used by my grandson to wind his P30.  He was quite small for his age so I made a strap out of an old pistol belt attached to the handle.  He would climb into the harness and lean back.  Did pretty well watching the torque meter while winding.  Had some long flights with that one.  Still have the winder but now use a proper Sidewinder.
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« Reply #355 on: October 29, 2018, 09:54:26 PM »

The drill that I converted also has only one pinion and a screw on handle.  The pinion on mine was pinned to the shaft.  I also made up a winding gizmo in lieu of the chuck, that is also pinned to the shaft.  Has no problems with 25-30gram SENATOR motors, but I haven't had a chance to try it on a Coupe or F1b motor yet.
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« Reply #356 on: December 29, 2018, 08:32:45 AM »

While wandering around YouTube I came across an interesting video regarding winders.
this fellow had a winder that instead of a hook, had two loops of soft looking straps that hooked over the prop blades and allowed winding without disconnecting the motor from the prop shaft. I realize this wouldn't work on some of the delicate props of indoor, No-Cal and such type models, but for larger models with sturdier built and plastic props it seemed like an easier, quicker way to wind 'er up.

Has anyone here tried this technique?
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tom arnold
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« Reply #357 on: December 29, 2018, 10:51:07 AM »

Yes, and the best I can say about it is: awkward.
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« Reply #358 on: December 29, 2018, 10:56:42 AM »

Having a blast tube and torque meter are more important to me than "easier and quicker."
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Dan Snow
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« Reply #359 on: December 29, 2018, 10:58:31 AM »

Awkward is what I was thinking as well. By quicker and easier I was referring to not having to unhook the motor from the prop shaft and reattach it after winding. Trying to get the two loops off the prop without dropping the winder or damaging the model looks like it would need some practice.
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« Reply #360 on: December 29, 2018, 04:31:51 PM »

Yes, and in addition, makes it impossible to use a winding tube.
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« Reply #361 on: December 29, 2018, 08:16:06 PM »

This is the video I found that shows the floppy straps around the prop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Anwy6p6pi8
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« Reply #362 on: January 05, 2019, 07:17:17 PM »

Can someone here show me where I went astray?

I built a torque meter per instructions found in a video by one Doyle Blevins. I used .015" wire and bent it up, sandxiched it between two cards, covered the ends with heat shrink tubing and bent the hooks into the ends. all per instructions. Then to test it I hooked it up to a 4" 3/32 wide rubber band and after putting maybe 150 turns I discovered that I had twisted the pointer almost 300 degrees!!

That ain't gonna be of much use when I go to wind a real motor, so I must have screwed up somewhere.
Here's a link to Mr Blevins video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDoMzyeIzWA
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« Reply #363 on: January 05, 2019, 08:21:06 PM »

I'm pretty sure that your wire size is too small for a short 3/32" motor.  That torque meter would really only be used on an indoor model.  If you are planning on flying something a littler heavier (such as the plan on his video) you should probably move up to 0.063 (1/16") wire size and try again.
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« Reply #364 on: January 05, 2019, 08:28:49 PM »

Here's a link to a torque meter by the great Herb Kothe!   http://www.flyingacesclub.com/PFFT/TorqueMeterKothe.pdf 
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« Reply #365 on: January 05, 2019, 09:39:32 PM »

Looked at the video.  I have no idea where he is coming from.  Never heard of him but I am hardly an indoor expert.  Maybe someone else knows him.  He must fly only very light indoor models.  His meter might handle .060 Tan SS max.

Build the Kothe meter.  Use the math formula to determine the wire size.  The illustrated 50 oz-in shown will handle anything up to a Gollywork.  You might want to aim for around 20 if flying smaller Rubber Scale models.  The meter I use for P30 is 11 oz-in.

For the tube, I used an aluminum arrow shaft.  Archery supply stores have them and they are not too expensive.  I got mine from the trash bin behind a sporting supply store for free.  A large Peck Polymers thrust button was a perfect fin in each end.
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Dan Snow
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« Reply #366 on: January 05, 2019, 09:54:25 PM »

That's what happens when you don't know the right questions to ask! Smiley  I heard nothing on the video about it being for indoor.  So now I have a meter if I ever am delusional enough to try and build an ultra fragile indoor flying thingy! Smiley Smiley Smiley

Will look into building a Kothe meter.
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« Reply #367 on: January 05, 2019, 10:51:18 PM »

Doyle has attended the indoor NATS several times, AND, this is the INDOOR FF Forum after all so not surprised at the size of the meter.

Rey
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« Reply #368 on: January 05, 2019, 10:59:27 PM »

Yeah, using Kothe's formula, it looks like that video would produce a torque meter good for about 1 in-oz for 360 degrees.  While that is not how I made my torque meters, it looks like it is good, in principle and should work just fine - for small indoor models.

--george
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« Reply #369 on: January 06, 2019, 07:58:15 AM »

Not being good at higher math anymore, I have tried running Kothes simplified formula through my calculator and I am noot getting the right results. When I try his formula of
Angle=(.00000332)(80)(15.9)/(.063)(.063)(.063)(.063)  instead of getting 267 I get 1.064

What am I doing wrong?
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« Reply #370 on: January 06, 2019, 08:36:54 AM »

You forgot your order of operations (MDAS - My Dear Aunt Sally - Multiply Divide Add Subtract)

You need to group the numbers properly:

Multiply these (.00000332)(80)(15.9)  and set that number aside .00422304

then

Multiply these (.063)(.063)(.063)(.063)  and set that number aside  .000015752961

Then divide the first by the second

.00422304/.000015752961 = 268.079...

If you notice, in his formula on the page, he has brackets where you did not - those are very important.  WITH them, you can just punch the brackets, numbers, and symbols into your calculator.   Without them, you get the wrong answer.

On additional comment (and maybe you were just testing your math) - that formula with those numbers will give you a 80 in-oz torque meter.  That is a very heavy piece of equipment, suitable for BIG rubber ships.  If you are going to fly things say P-30 and smaller, use the numbers at the bottom for 20 in-oz - or maybe 40 if you want some Old Time Rubber ships.

--george
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« Reply #371 on: January 08, 2019, 07:24:40 PM »

If/when I get around to making another torque meter it will be the 20 oz/in one. I was just running through his calculation to see if I got the same result. Well, I got the same result, Twice! But it was the wrong result! Thanks for putting it in simple terms even I could understand! Smiley
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« Reply #372 on: February 10, 2019, 06:04:35 AM »

Okay all you Experts out there, I need some guidance here.  I have started gathering all the bits needed to make a 20 in/oz version of Kothe's torque meter, and would like to know how critical is the diameter of the aluminum tube? The aluminum arrow shaft I found has an OD of .344" rather than .312"

Anyway, the part that has me a bit flummoxed is the connection of the wire/alum. tube/brass cap. If I'm reading the construction notes correctly, after forming the hook at the winders end, I solder a pointer, slide on the alum. tube and then solder the cap onto the wire at the specified distance for the meter I'm making.

Hold on a minute here. As I look at the instructions, they tell me that to make a meter for 20 in/oz I need a length of 19.8 INCHES between pointer and cap of .047" wire. Then I need to ADD 12-14" of wire past that if I want to use a blast tube on my models! Add in 2-4 more inches from the pointer to the winder end hook and I'm looking at 3 Freakin' Feet!  That can't be right, can it? I can see this thing getting bent all to heck just moving it around, going to and from the field, plus very awkward to use solo. 

So is there any reason why I can't make the distance shorter? If I'm doing the math correctly, ( a very BIG if ), if I use a distance of .047" wire a deflection of 109 degrees is 20 in/oz, correct?

Okay, sorry about the digression there, back to the original question: If the distance between cap and pointer is critical, what is the best sequence to follow to get it assembled so you dont either melt the epoxy or char the dial face when soldering things together?  I suppose I could cut a slot into the dial face to slide it over the wire, while sliding the support for the dial face onto the aluminum tube before inserting the wire, which gets bent up After inserting it into the tube.................

Deep Breath!!! Okay, I'll stop now.   All silliness aside, how critical is it to keep epoxy out of the tube at the cap end?  and as an extra thought, if I was to make a removable extension to hook between the meterand the rubber, would that throw the calculations out the window?
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« Reply #373 on: February 10, 2019, 09:50:10 AM »

ok, trying to answer in no particular order.

the critical dimensions for the torque meter are between where the indicator is attached (soldered) and where the tube is anchored to the wire.  These are the two reference points - the indicator is obviously attached to the wire and the dial is attached to the tube - which is attached to the wire.  The meter measures the angular twist of the wire between those two reference points.  So, it is critical that you are able to securely attach BOTH points and relatively accurately.  Note that what is important in measuring torque is your RELATIVE torque to past and future measurements.  You can do fine with a meter that is not EXACT to external references (such as an accurate in-oz scale) as long as YOU know where you are on YOUR meter.  The only issue that comes about if your meter is off calibration is that when someone says "I wind to 5 in-oz", 5 on their meter may not be exactly where 5 is on your meter.

Any length of wire beyond the two reference points will not affect the needle indicator.  Some people do make the external wire long enough to use with a blast tube.  This simply cuts down on pieces of equipment they use during winding as it combines the blast tube wire and the torque meter into one.  This is not necessary, if you are prepared to use two pieces of equipment.

The diameter of the tube DOES NOT MATTER, as long as the wire does not bind inside the tube.

My calculations for 0.047 wire and 109 degrees of rotation at 20 in-oz is a length of wire 8.01" long.  I made a spreadsheet based on Kothe's formula and it has wire diameter across the top and torque down the side and I input the desired deflection.  Your 19.8" of 0.047" wire at 20 in-oz produces a deflection of 270 degrees.

-george





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« Reply #374 on: February 10, 2019, 12:57:23 PM »

Dan,

A few thoughts from an inexperienced torque meter user - I've made a grand total of one torque meter and have used it for the last two years, so take this for what it's worth.  George has covered the mechanics of the meter very well, not much I can add to that.

20 oz-in is a lot of torque.  I made mine to read to 12 oz-in and have only used it over 6 oz-in when winding motors to destruction on a test bench.  For small models like your Hemiptere, Chipmunk etc you'll probably never wind to over 4 oz-in.  I found that for my models under 20" span I'm usually winding to 2-3 oz-in, and my 12 oz-in torque meter is too high-range for that.  Winding it the low-end of the meter makes it difficult (for me at least) to have confidence that I'm winding to a repeatable performance point from flight to flight.  I'm going to build another meter scaled for 6 oz-in max torque to use for these smaller models.

Take a look at the models you plan to use the meter on and measure the length between hook and peg.  My models are all under 27" span, with hook-peg lengths between 6-10 inches.  I've standardized on roughly 11"x3/4" diameter blast tube for my larger models and 8"x5/8" diameter for my smaller models.  With that knowledge you can decide whether to extend the torque meter wire (outside the critical length George described) towards the model long enough to allow you to pull the blast tube up over the torque meter or to make an extension wire with hooks on either end that will let you pull out the blast tube.  I've been using an extension wire as follows:

1. Hook the extension wire to the motor
2. Slide the blast tube over the extension wire and rubber into the model and hook it to the rear peg
3. Remove the extension wire
4. Hook the motor to the torque meter
5. Wind
6. Disconnect the torque meter and hook on the extension wire
7. Unhook the blast tube and slide it out over the extension wire
8. Disconnect the extension wire from the rubber
9. Hook the rubber onto the noseblock and insert the noseblock in model
10. Go fly!

As you can see, you can eliminate some steps if you've built the extension into your torque meter - that's what I plan to do on my next meter.

I had some problems with the wire breaking loose from the fitting holding it to the tube at the model end of the meter.  This is probably mostly due to my poor soldering skills.  To remedy this I filed a notch in the fitting, bent the wire to slide into the notch, then formed the hook from there (see picture).  This made the solder joint much stronger, hasn't broken since.

One other thought:  on my first meter I used a ring of 1/2" ply as the dial face.  This was a mistake, as the mass of all that ply causes the meter to whip around while winding.  The rubber dances around with the meter, shaking the model in the stooge.  The meter also oscillates a lot during winding so you have to stop cranking and let it settle down to get even a rough idea of what torque you're at.  For the next meter I'm going to use some thin light plywood for the face - something just strong enough to avoid damage in the flight box.

Anyway, there's lots of folks here that know a lot more than I do, but I hope this helps you a bit.

Mike

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