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Author Topic: Keelbild Lysander  (Read 865 times)
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DavidJP
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« on: June 08, 2019, 06:55:02 AM »

Was inspired by the production of the KK one built by Mike Z-KUD.  The plan makes for an interesting build which thus held my attention but of course the amount of detail (which presumably would be valid for `kit scale?) encourages the weight to escalate and this is no exception!! Again 19ins span. The spats/undercarriage were easier to make than I first thought. No wing fixing details are shown as such so used he conventional dowels in paper tube.  Quite happy with it - only doubts are if the fuselage will cope with 6 strands of 3/16th rubber??
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Keelbild Lysander
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DHnut
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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2019, 07:41:27 AM »

David,
        I know the Doug McHard Lysander did not use anything like 6 strands of 3/16". My hazy recollection was in the region of 4 x 1/8" or even 3/32" as it was a light model. Hope that reassures you.
Ricky 
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TheLurker
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2019, 09:27:34 AM »

That's a nice looking little Lizzie and the caption made me smile.

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... encourages the weight to escalate and this is no exception!!
I'm told that confession is good for the soul; so how much does it weigh? Smiley

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Don McLellan
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2019, 09:38:20 AM »

Nice work David!  I too am curious about the weight. 
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DavidJP
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2019, 05:28:46 AM »

Thank you Gentlemen and Don. 

Yes Ricky Mr McHards version was light - some 20gms.  Yeah well I am fed up with models that disintegrate if they glance off a wall or with stringers that crumple at a fairy’s kiss!  So mine ‘ain’t light.  Well Lurk old fellow I hope to get down to the weighbridge tomorrow so will let you know!  Don,  don’t be curious - make a considered guess and add quite a bit.  But I am trying to keep it scale too and the real one was heavy!
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DHnut
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2019, 11:53:16 PM »

David,
         I am not suggesting that any of us can build to the weights that Doug did but I am sure you are able to build to about the 25 gm level. Mike has not used any paint and was a bit light on the dope for about 19 gm. May I suggest the wood selection is key here and I can claim to making more than a few errors in this department, and now put any stringy 1/16" sq aside for use as stringers. It has reduced the carnage when hitting walls and I avoid Cyano as a glue because I find it is prone to brittle fracture on impact, that Titebond does not do. At 25 Grams I would estimate a loop of .150-.170" would do nicely. The Keelbuild Lysander is on my project list as well. Sometime!
Ricky   
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2019, 12:33:14 AM »

Hi David,

Should I take my shoes off to count both fingers and toes to guess a weight?  Well, and then add some?

D
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OZPAF
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 05:46:06 AM »

Well David it doesn't look a shade over 20kG to me Smiley Whoops I mean gms. Smiley

John
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DavidJP
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2019, 12:41:45 PM »

I do like your sense of humour John.  And Don - assuming that you are formed in the conventional manner you could just get there - yes it is as you see it there rounded off upwards - 20gms.  Can't be fussed with tenths of a gram. 

Ricky - thanks - having been fighting the weight thing now for a little while and it is precisely as you say - wood selection.  And I am pleased to say with the gems of information on here I have made some inroad into that dark art.  I am coming to the conclusion that building light is not as an evasive target as one might initially think. It depends also though on what you want. I now think I could build lighter models. but they would not suite my purpose entirely.  A number of people it seems build exquisite models that are light and thus are able to be made to fly very well - but (and here is the rub) many do not (and quite understandably) fly them very often. So a fragile model will lead a sheltered life and survive quite well. But also they are in then hands of very competent "pilots" so do not have to endure the traumas that mine suffer - i.e.hitting walls ceilings and floors and a heavy handed  ground crew person adept at crushing delicate bits.

I have saved weight in some areas by diverting from the plan - the "keel" on mine is less the half the dimension shown on the plan - the tailplane and fin again reduced sizes and come out at one gram all together.  This I hope compensates for the sheeting not on the plan around the cockpit area - to resist my ability to crunch things when launching. But I have sanded down the 1/32nd used to probably no more than 1/64th. You can certainly see the light through it on a dull day. 

The spats - now covered with tissue and doped with some talc and dope are 2 and a  bit grams but need sanding of course, so say 2.  The cowl seems heavy - but it has one of Derek Knights clever little gizmos permitting adjustment of the thrust line and a tiny magnet to hold it on. Well am bound to need a bit of front end ballast aren't I??  but at nearly six grams it is the same weight as the fuselage.  Finally the wings - just under 3 grams the pair.  The struts - well the timber does not register on my scales and they have yet  to be sanded to shape. That leaves the wheels - balsa of course.  The canopy - from Mike is 2gms.  So your encouraging view that I should be at 25gms (most welcomed) does not I suppose seem quite so daft but it will be tight because there is a coat of dope plus paint and the motor. However nearer 25 I hope than 30!! 

The other thing I always now bear in mind  that saving weight here and there - say a total of two grams can be nearly 10% of the finished model. Building light is it seems much more difficult with small models - say under 20ins span - I have also just finished an ABC Robin (36ins span) from E J Riding's plan  and quite easily managed to keep within the considered 6oz all up ready to go, using dimensions and materials as per plan.

Finally I don't think I am likely to lose my Lizzie by a fly away am I?

I was told some little while ago that there are people who give the weight of their models as finished but sans motor and any ballast needed.  I can see no purpose in that - can't be that universal is it?             
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DHnut
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2019, 04:33:19 PM »

David,
        you under rate your abilities, those are good weights and rgw the use of magnets, nose button, and sheeting in the nose is proper use of the inevitable ballest needed to trim the model. Doug always maintained realism was better than a transparent finish, but had the ability to achieve it without significant weight gain. I am not sure but did the Lysander eventually gain a CO2 motor, like the Spitfire and Hurricane? All to save weight. My Hurricane has become 15 gms lighter with a Telco power. Using Mikes canopy will help strengthen the wing fuselage area so that will help deal with the initial trimming events and you have a very large hall at Bushfield after any initial outdoor flying. What is the planned colour scheme? One of the TT ones would make a colourful presence. look forward to seeing the photos. 
Ricky
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ZK-AUD
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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2019, 08:22:44 PM »

Interestingly my KK version needed tail weight - a very small blob of plasticene on the bum to perfect the trim.  It really is all about the magic wood. - and avoiding unnecessary dead weight like wire and plastic wheels
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OZPAF
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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2019, 08:50:22 PM »

Your weights seem to be pretty good to me David. Will you be using a plastic or balsa prop?

John
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DavidJP
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2019, 09:14:00 AM »

Thanks again for the reassurance.

Yes it will have wooden wheels (painted to look like the real ones!! Wink) and also I think a wooden prop - I fancy doing a three bladed one but would welcome views on that please.  I would have "guessed" at a 6 inch plastic one for two boded prop - should I reduce the diameter for three blades?

Colour scheme -  well I fancy a camo. one - with sky underside - warplane you see ......  yes a TT could look nice but a bit blingy for my taste
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TheLurker
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2019, 11:59:45 AM »

Quote from: DavidJP
Colour scheme -  well I fancy a camo. one - with sky underside - warplane you see
Then again... you could always join me in the pursuit of a fleet of NMF aeroplanes.  After all aluminium finish tissue will keep the weight down and is well known for it's tractability and ease of use.  Wink

The pic, from my small library of possible NMF subjects, was in something like FlyPast a year or so ago.
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Re: Keelbild Lysander
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OZPAF
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2019, 08:32:31 PM »

Re the 3 blade prop - I would keep close to the same diameter as the 2 blade but a little less area/blade.

John
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DavidJP
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« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2019, 12:27:20 PM »

Thank you John..... OK - will do - I can always cut it down. I think in fact the plan shows a prop. of that size as I had a look last night.

Lurk - yes NMF are quite nice but I think on this one I will go dark green/earth/sky - and blow the weight!!  Dare I say too hat NMF does not apply (strictly) to the Lysander because about 85% is fabric covered ..... Cheesy 
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C VEICH
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2019, 12:34:18 AM »

It has been my understanding that NMF stands for natural metal finish.  Is that not correct?
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If it ain't broke, go fly it!
TheLurker
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« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2019, 12:38:16 AM »

Quote from: DavidJP
...that NMF does not apply (strictly) to the Lysander because about 85% is fabric covered ..... Cheesy 
Oh alright then.  I was just being lazy and well you know it. Smiley

... my understanding that NMF stands for natural metal finish.
Spot on.
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DavidJP
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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2019, 05:04:09 AM »

OK - keep your hair on - grumpy! Wink
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« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2019, 12:49:33 PM »

I like this David, the Lysander has always been a favourite of mine.  My Grandad bought me an airfix one when I was a kid, and he told me about the brave Ladies that we’re dropped off into France in them to spy on the Germans...

I have to finish my KK at some point,  and VMC have suggested it as a new model for their range, but I have to think pretty hard about how I would make it strong, presentable, manufacturable (as part of a kit) and yet easy for the average bod to join and fix the wings.  In my minds eye I would make the span bigger too, to try and match the methods of construction to give a sensible overall weight..

Looking forward to seeing how this pans out though...  Grin

Andrew
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TheLurker
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« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2019, 02:55:01 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Darby
... and VMC have suggested it as a new model for their range...
*Puts in early bid for a silver doped version*.  Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2019, 05:18:52 PM »

Yes, I think I would go for that one  Grin

Andrew
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DavidJP
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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2019, 01:36:21 PM »

Yes I have always been a Lizzie fan.  Those ladies you mention were indeed brave.  And would you believe that they were not covered by the gGendva Convention because at the time women had simply not been mentioned because it never occurred to anyone that they might  end to be!  And many had no experience of “War” but had lead reels to rly lacy like and in a number of cases sheltered lives.  They were chosen largely for their fluency in language.  And some were (after training of course) quite proficient in silent killing.  Quite incredible people. 

The Keelbild one is a very interesting build I found. Rather ahead of its time I think.  Becoming a fan of the Newcastle Model Shop offerings.
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