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Author Topic: HLG Wing Shaping  (Read 9475 times)
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sweepettelee
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« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2008, 12:52:41 PM »

Or...just shape by eyeball, light & shadows, and measure often to reach your sought after bogie dimensions, as I do. Roll Eyes Grin

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Dan G.
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« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2008, 05:20:44 PM »

Yah ... I'm very much an eyeball kind-a-guy ... along with a few critical measurements at the start. And ... the trim is going to be pretty much by eyeball ...

Dan G.
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Tmat
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« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2008, 06:54:53 PM »

Yes, eyeball and light and shadow...all very touchy-feely!
And yes, that's the way I've always done it as well.

But, as you know, I'm lazy, so if there's a way to get the results I want and save time doing it? Well, I'm all over it!

And the irony of wasting time thinking up ways to save time is not lost on me.... Grin

Tmat
-made a sketch of my jig, just have to find a scanner!
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sweepettelee
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« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2008, 07:11:41 PM »

Tmat,
Send sketch to me by post.
I have scanner and will post it for you. Smiley
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Tmat
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« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2008, 07:32:55 PM »

Yeah, I could certainly do that Leeper!

John, I've re-run my numbers on my actual wing % thk using the fixed rear taper method of shaping. If we assume a fixed te thk of 0.030" (not unreasonable I'd say) then I get the following:

For a 3.75" chord root @ 5% - 0.1875"
For a 3.34" d-break - 5.1% - 0.170"
For a 2.0" tip - 5.7 % - 0.114"

The increased error towards the tip (from the chosen 5% design goal) is simply the result of a fixed te thickness. Te thk at 2" tip chord would need to be 0.016", then you'd get the 5% thk. But that's a little thin for even me!

Sig used to make Hlg stock IIRC that had a constant taper at the rear. Would sure save time. I'm actually going to order some kit bits from Stan B. that are pre-shaped (rough sawn) with fixed rear taper.

But... then I'll sand that tip down like a mad man!

Mwahahahahah!

Tmat
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Dan G.
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« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2008, 07:52:25 PM »

Naw ... I go thinner than .016 on all my trailing edges. I take em down to as thin as possible ... the urethane will stiffen things up.

Dan G.
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« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2008, 08:55:00 PM »

That's thinner than I'll go outdoors Dan. Indoors, sure I'll go real thin.
Don't like to risk warpage in damp conditions.

Tony
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sweepettelee
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« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2008, 09:29:42 PM »

Dan G & Tmat,

Stan & I have running joke related to your TE thkns banter. When I finish a new wing he looks at it, then dryly comments, 'The TE is too thin'. And I don't think I have gone less than .020 'thin' on them for years! Cheesy

Leeper
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Dan G.
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« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2008, 10:20:50 PM »

Well ... as I said ... if the TE holds together, the urethane will stiffen it up.

To add to your disbelief, I'll bet I have the smallest fuselages going ... maybe too small to assure consistent launch bank angle ... and I use spruce ... and I can't remember when's the last time I broke one. My current number one ship has been flying for six years, now, has nailed a twelve-minute flight in the park, and it's the one I hand to strangers to try with ... little kids included.

I use 1/8" spruce and don't taper the width until the LE of the stab ... so it ends up being circular in cross section at the stab.

Dan G.
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Dan G.
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« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2008, 03:29:52 AM »

I thought that in order to preserve my credibility ... I couldn't help but sense the possibility of question marks forming in the heads of some readers ... I would post some pictures of my number one ship. I wish I had sharper images ... but there you go ... .

The plane is a slightly modified "Supersweep 22", and was made in 2002. It is all balsa except for the wing's leading edge and the fuselage ... both are spruce ... and the 1/16" ply finger brace. It is assembled entirely with 5 min epoxy and has the tail leading edges touched with ca, is finished in urethane, and currently weighs 26 grams. It has had many, many flights ... by many people, mostly strangers ... the longest of which was twelve minutes. So far, it has never been in a tree.

The photo with the pale model shows the high-point (obviously) but also the wing warps to some extent. You will also see the stab repairs from cartwheel landings.

Dan G.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: HLG Wing Shaping
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Dan G.
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« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2008, 03:52:00 AM »

... a second batch of pictures ...

Here you will see clean, solid joints ... that I kept Leeper's fin shape which is much prettier than Wittman's. This fin has is mostly de Haviland with a touch of Curtis and Lockheed ... much praise for Leeper's sense of aesthetics. Stab tilt is shown ... as is the very small fuselage which measures 3/8" high at the TE ... 1/32" more at the LE. Because of the raised leading edge ... and an alarming tendency for the epoxy to crack ... there is a little plywood strake to prevent the wing's lifting off the fuselage. Note ... that what you can see of any trailing edges, they are all brought to feather ... essentially dimensionless ... although one stranger did put his launch finger behind the wing ... on the wrong side ... so there is a little indentation there ... but otherwise, things are pretty clean.

Dan G.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: HLG Wing Shaping
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Re: HLG Wing Shaping
Re: HLG Wing Shaping
Re: HLG Wing Shaping
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« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2008, 12:57:30 PM »

Dan
Thanks for the photographs of your version of the 'Supersweep' it really is a beautiful build. I don't know how it has survived in such excellent condition for so long. However I really can't accept your last remark that:"things are pretty clean." I don't think so, not with that big gob of pink bubble gum parked on the port side of an otherwise fair fuselage. I don't know if it was intended to coax the CG into a more favorable position but if so I should remind you that lead is the material for that job and its proper place is inside the fuselage, and the proper place for chewing gum is is on the bedpost when you have finished with it for the day.

John
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Dan G.
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« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2008, 11:28:00 PM »

Greetings John ... I was referring specifically to the trailing edges ... I should have said, "those edges ...." instead of "everything's pretty clean".

But ... you're right, of course ... in an idealistic sense. I suppose its a matter of trade-offs and a touch of laziness. I did used to sink and fair-in nose weights and found that considerable effort was required. As my fuselage dimensions shrank, the task became yet more difficult until the lead comprised a fair portion of the nose, and it had a tendency to break in areas where I never had breakages before. I detested compromising the integrity of that slender piece of spruce by cutting into it in any way. Gluing the lead on externally (old type-setter's lead on either side, faired smooth with epoxy) was so much easier, which I was keen to accept while churning out my four planes a year (in addition to whatever else I was building).

I suppose we all focus our attention on different aspects of our machines ... right from the word GO, I have used rolled tubes as fuselages on my Nordics and outdoor rubber ships ... figuring them to be more streamlined. You've decided not to pursue that idealistic route ... for reasons of your own ... but the rest of your plane looks pretty good ... especially for one which is subjected to the vagaries of up and down air.

Even if I did continue to hide my basic nose weight ... I would still be trimming with plasticine (I used to trim with lead putty -- 60% lead -- but the lead come off too much on my hands) and I don't think I would bother to hide that bit in equivalent weight on an outdoor ship. Now ... if I were faced with an indoor challenge where one or two second off every flight would count ... I would be burying my weights.

Phew ... watch me squirm ... eh? Pretty funny ... I hope I did alright.

Caught-off guard there though ... umph.

Dan G.
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jjjlaudenslager
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« Reply #63 on: September 05, 2008, 05:54:26 PM »

Dan, Somewhere I think you said you paint with urethane instead of dope? And, if so, do you thin it and how? I'm at that stage on a Sweepette build.

2. Theoretical question: since you and everyone say to try to make the left wing the heavier one, then why mount the fuse to the right of wing span center? By the way, my fuse is on per plans a little right and tending left aft.

3. The way you say you like to fly your Supersweep is exactly how I and my wife want to fly our HLG's: for sport in a modest area, not for competition or big thermals. Probably some others share this interest. So, WE'D LOVE TO SEE THE DETAILS OF THE ENTIRE BUILD THAT LETS YOU FLY LIKE THAT!

Yes, we're glider newbies. We're coming from 3D flat foamies.

John
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Sundance12
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« Reply #64 on: September 05, 2008, 07:34:06 PM »

Hi jjjlaudenslager

I am in the mid stages of a Supersweep 22 Build, the airplane Dan G. likes to fly. I will make a presentation of this build soon.

Sundance12
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jjjlaudenslager
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« Reply #65 on: September 06, 2008, 11:50:35 PM »

Sorry for finish/urethane question in reply #63 - have found fulsome answer in outdoor free flight - clg - finish for hlg or clg.
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« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2008, 10:03:29 AM »

How does one reatin the trims in the HLG. The way I had heard, breathe hard on the part, bend and hold. but this not permenant as it fades away a few days later. Is there a light but more permenant method ? I have heard put very smal thin strips of Aluminium ( coke, pepsi) can . They are very thin and light. however I had no luck as the glue dot falls off. Thanks in advance for the reply.

By the way what kind of Urethane is used to finish the plane. Is it Water based Minwax ?

Sailaway.
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« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2008, 12:17:20 PM »

The finish that many of the guys use now is Minwax Helmsman Spar urethane varnish (in the green can, uv resistant). Not the water based stuff. You actually wipe it on (or smear it on) thick, and then, with a clean, no-lint cloth, try and wipe nearly all of it away. After a minimum of 10 hours drying, sand with 400 grit and add a second coat.

This finish doesn't warp, yellow, or crack with age, is flexible, and with 2 or more coats is waterproof.

As for a more permanent way of warping the surfaces? With a pop-up wing or tailboom, I don't touch the stab at all. Just adjust the screw. For the rudder, I suggest using a small wedge of balsa, or some small (1/32" sqr) strips of wood used as a Gurney flap. You cut some of the strip shorter to remove effective flap, and add a bit more to the length to add flap.

For the wash-in on the inside wing, you should also avoid any warping. Again, a simple wedge of balsa, about 1/4" to 3/8" wide and 1/2" to 3/4" long about 1/16" thk (to begin with) will suffice. Add it just outside of the dihedral break towards the tip (about half way or so out the wing panel). Shave it down as much as possible, only use just enough to prevent a spin-in.

I don't even try and warp the surface now that I use Minwax. It seems to just go back flat again.

Also, I try and glue the ruder on with about a 1 degree deflection right from the get go. Use a glue stick to get it positioned, then hit the joint with thin CA when aligned.

Tmat
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sweepettelee
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« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2008, 12:37:16 PM »

Hey Tmat, you are becoming the repository Forum How-To guru for all things S. Buddenbohm-ish!

Your answers were exactly as if emerging from 'The Stan' himself, or even myself, as proxy!

I would only differ in the material used to wipe the MinWax away...try the blue paper towel, they seem quite lint-free. But not normal paper towels or normal tissues, as you will find the need for undue sanding, which no doubt cuts the water/warp resistance to some degree.

I want to reiterate Tmat's stab comment...keep it flat! Adjust incidence by other means, even if it means removing the stab and adjusting the body where it mounts. Of course, if you have popup wing or tail boom setup shimming or screw adjust is the best.

Ciao,
Leeper
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« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2008, 01:22:23 PM »

Thanks Guys, I will do that.

I am coming back to HLG after 24 years. Things have changed and for the better. This past weekend, On my first flight of Staight UP CLG( Model Aviation Plan) I lost it OOS in my first full power pull. Did not even get to trim it. This is fluke as I always spend an hour trimming it.

Building two new ones this week. It takes the same amount of time. I do not wish to use the light up fuse DT . Then , these days what are my most cost effective, light weight options ?

As soon as i get my HLG/CLG ready, I will post a photo.

Thanks again.

Sailaway.
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« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2008, 05:27:58 PM »

Hey Leeper! Grin

Actually, I don't use paper towels to wipe off the excess Minwax. I use a cheap lint free cloth sold in bags used for the application of stain. It's cheap, soft and absorbent (and lint free!). No fresh minty smell though Angry

Sailaway, the Straight-up is a good little clg. Simple to make and flies well too!

The rotary viscous timer, or silly putty timer is the unit of choice for hlg and clg these days. There are articles here and on SFA on how to make your own, or you can just buy one from several sources. A pop-up boom or wing is the d.t. method of choice. However, I've seen the viscous timer used to employ a swinging weight style d.t. as well as a drag flap.

Tmat
-proxy when Leeper is flitting about the country on his travels! Grin that's a good one!
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« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2008, 12:42:16 AM »

For your amusement, I've managed to shrink a picture down to a size that can be shown here. Grin
So see below for a sketch of my HLG wing shaping jig. This particular jig is set-up to shape the wing of my clg - MatCat18.

The jig was described earlier in the thread. It's a simple tool (from a simple mind! Grin) used to create an automatic chordwise and spanwise taper of a hlg wing blank. It's especially useful to create a blank with a reduction in airfoil % thickness towards the tip.

However, the basic idea can be used to shape almost any hlg wing. To get a constant wing % thickness, you just set the front "shim" parallel to the TE. To get a tapered wing the shim needs to be skewed forward as shown (or shewn if you're Hepcat!). To get a double tapered wing (like mine) the shim is skewed forward and then "bent" or curved forward toward the tips (see sketch).

This applies only to a wing with a straight TE, or at least with the bulk of the TE being straight.

I've used it (as have a few others already) and I quite like it! I think it does save a bit of time, especially if you have more than one wing to shape at a time (I'm doing 4 right now). Even for one wing, it makes achieving a high degree of accuracy a snap.

Tmat
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Re: HLG Wing Shaping
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jjjlaudenslager
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« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2009, 10:19:55 PM »

Hi, Dan G

I reread the whole thread with great pleasure, and am taking this from your reply #17:

"If you want more, do ask... or if I've contradicted myself, or if confusion still reigns."

I would like a little more, and not because I think you contradicted yourself. In reply #16 you discussed washes, and mentioned the L wing wash-in and L rudder opposing each other in a balancing act. I suppose in the past you tried eliminating one and reducing the other, to reduce drag or make life simpler or... Maybe eliminated the L wing wash-in, used less L rudder, got the glide turn with stab tilt or something other than much rudder. I'd sure like to know what you tried, what you saw, and what's your analysis of what you saw.

ps - I once posted (#63), and Sundance replied (#64). Did he ever do the build thread?
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« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2009, 11:27:19 PM »

Hi John L.

I've not kept-up on the website much lately, but my response to your email might be worth something to someone else as well, so I'll post it here: the balances involved (washes, offsets, etc.) relate largely to how tight a pattern you wish to fly.

Tighter patterns are useful in turbulent air because the glider recovers quicker and thermals better. The more open patterns are only applicable successfully in calmer air such as evening conditions. I prefer the open patterns because I'm not competing and I usually fly in calm conditions since I do it for fun. However, the open pattern demands a stronger arm and is less forgiving with inconsistent launches.

The basic determiner of whether a pattern is open or tight is the decalage. The tight pattern (higher decalage) will require tighter circles because the glider will be more sensitive (prone to stalling) to speed variations which will be cured with a tight circular pattern, both high speed and low speed.

Which pattern you choose will be largely determined by how often you expect your ship to be upset, and how quickly you want recovery (besides any personal proclivities such as throwing quirks or aesthetic preferences). I seem to recall that I've referred to stall frequency in the past, and probably matching it to a glide circle. For each stall frequency there will be a more or less ideal circle which best preserves height. You can't quickly dampen a stall without a circle. So, going back to your question, if you back off on any of the adjustments, you will have to compensate with a similar reduction in its balancing factors, and the entire flight pattern will have to be enlarged or opened, with a subsequent reduction in recoverability.

I've not got a sense of how much of this website you've read but there has been a lot written about hlg trimming. Plumb the depths of that a bit and I think you'll find that the answers are already there in abundant detail.

My hunch is that Sundance hasn't had the time to tackle a hlg and describe a build, and I bet that by now, he'll be weighing whether it's such a wise project, what with tip-launched gliders beckoning appealingly from nearby with their increased performance and ease of launching.
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« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2009, 11:34:49 PM »

Well... I have to eat my words. It seems that Sundance has just started a Supersweep build. Maybe your queries, John, spurred him on.
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