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Author Topic: CATAJETS: Design and Development  (Read 64926 times)
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crashcaley
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« Reply #175 on: October 20, 2010, 04:27:00 PM »

The icky weather has subsided, and I went out in the back yard to do test gliding. It's fine for a 10 foot glide, but with harder throws a disaster. It went in a curve into the ground and broke apart. I know I had plenty of incidence between the wing and tail, so not sure. Could very well be that I don't throw very straight. I've consistently thrown HLG's into the ground. Sad Guess I will glue the thing back together, remove the lead weight and see if some kid would like it with the caveat that it doesn't fly. I think my designing days are at an end. The U-2 Spyplane and this one were total failures. Don't know enough about airplanes to design from 3-views. I'll just sit back and enjoy watching you experts have fun.

Caley
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High Point
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« Reply #176 on: October 20, 2010, 05:51:19 PM »

Don't stop Caley; your little glider has inspired me even more and others too I'm sure. I have problems throwing also, except for short test glides, that's why a year or so ago I decided to just do CLG; more consistent launches. So get a sheet of paper and let your imagination run wild. I enjoy seeing your work.

Curtis
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Zack
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« Reply #177 on: October 20, 2010, 06:54:19 PM »

Hi Caley,

Maybe you should go directly from soft tosses to catapult launches? I rarely test rocket gliders with hard tosses--I trim them with soft tosses and then see if they can take the full power rocket boost Grin

Zack
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FLYACE1946
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« Reply #178 on: October 20, 2010, 07:01:13 PM »

Hi Caley,
my old friend George Perryman had much to say but some of the things that stuck with me is follows:

1. Get out from the workshop to the Laboratory and fly for fun.
2. If it ever turns out NOT to be fun then I'll look elsewhere for fun. HINT it was always fun with George.
3. When you aren't having a fun day refer back to #1 above.

George really had a lot of fun and the rest of us did to when he was around.
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« Reply #179 on: October 20, 2010, 07:02:39 PM »

I've YET to get a good "hard" toss to work on a catajet when gripping the thing on the fuz under the wing. What works for me on a "high power" toss is to grip the fuz FORWARD of the wing - like the nose grip of a low-wing rubber model.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #180 on: October 20, 2010, 07:32:57 PM »

Guys, I'm retiring from cata design. One reason it broke was that the gel pen made impressions as it laid down the lines on the fuselage. Where those lines are, is where the thing broke. And I was using too soft of wood anyway.

Pete, as I said, this puppy wasn't going to catajet up up and away. Too weak.

FlyAce, That gliding test was my first chance outside today due to it raining and being icky. The darn traitorous glider had it in for me. Grin

I'll make some big fat wheels like in the three view and make it a display model, waiting for the right kid to give it to.

Caley
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Sky9pilot
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« Reply #181 on: October 20, 2010, 07:50:09 PM »

Nooooooooooooooo Shocked Wink Caley Grin

Don't let the little bugger get you down. Just try again. I agree with Pete... a hard toss is difficult with these little guys. If it will glide 10 feet with a medium toss just start light catapult launches and trim from there.

My experience of trying to toss these little guys hard has would up with most of them doing a lawn dart. As far as the gel pens go... forgot to tell you not to press hard... sorry :'( Embarrassed I just lightly drag the pen along a straight edge, usually several time to get a line on dark schemes.

Give it another go, girl Wink Grin

Tom
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« Reply #182 on: October 20, 2010, 07:59:01 PM »

Caley, one word. Dihedral.

That little plane ain't got any. Make it a 14" span and put 1 1/4" under each tip. That might be enough.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #183 on: October 20, 2010, 08:03:35 PM »

Tom, If I try again, I'll need to build another. The fuse broke pretty bad due to those lines. Probably would make a naked airplane first. Shocked That way I trick it into thinking it won't get prettied up. As those gliders I've prettied up first always destroy themselves. I guess they get mad at me for getting a smudge of dirt on them. Cheesy

Caley

Dan, may not look like it has any dihedral, but for its size, which is an 8 inch wingspan, it probably has plenty at 3/4 inch. Indoor glides were rock solid laterally. Just wanted to drop its nose once speed bled off.
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danberry
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« Reply #184 on: October 20, 2010, 08:19:49 PM »

Dropped it's nose..... needs dihedral. It needs more.
8" isn't big enough. Go to 14" and see a world of difference. Our 12" Beat The Vart gliders are almost out of control and they're designed to fly as cats. These things are squirrely. Build to a decent size.
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« Reply #185 on: October 21, 2010, 12:52:43 AM »

Dropped it's nose..... needs dihedral. It needs more.
8" isn't big enough. Go to 14" and see a world of difference. Our 12" Beat The Vart gliders are almost out of control and they're designed to fly as cats. These things are squirrely. Build to a decent size.

atta girl Caley...

Bigger span is easier to trim as Danberry says... that's why I'm going to enlarge the LearFan to 11 or 12 inches.... I think the reason the natter and ohka did so well at 8 inches is because they have a thick chord which makes it like a plank. All my birds have a tapered chord wing root to tip. You might try a bit more dihedral as an experiment. It helped my LearFan.

Just part and parcel of the catajet design and development. Grin Wink

Tom
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« Reply #186 on: October 21, 2010, 07:02:43 AM »

Dropped it's nose..... needs dihedral. It needs more.
>SNIP<
All my birds have a tapered chord wing root to tip. You might try a bit more dihedral as an experiment. It helped my LearFan.
Just part and parcel of the catajet design and development. Grin Wink
Tom

And my F-89 "Scorpion"! Looks kinda weird, but it now flys.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 10:55:33 AM by Ratz » Logged

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« Reply #187 on: October 21, 2010, 08:28:47 PM »

I cracked the wing on the P-1077 and set it up with more dihedral. It will glide better already so maybe Saturday I will have it up again and it'll do better than 4 seconds,... I sure hope so anyway.
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« Reply #188 on: October 23, 2010, 01:43:07 AM »

FLYACE1946... good luck with the P-1077 on Saturday... hope to see pics soon

Casa c-101 aviojet... 9.5 inch span catajet Grin

I tried the trick that Neil used on the Piper and Aronca on the cataprops and did some Photoshop tweaking of a color three view and used thinner balsa and glued the paper over the balsa. The Fuselage was 1/16 balsa tapered nose to tail with another fuselage of 1/32 laminated to the 1/16 and the paper profiles glued to the outsides of the laminated fuselage. The wing was from 3/32 balsa tapered and sanded to the airfoil profile. Have yet to balance and try to glide it. Need to add my wire catapult hook on the nose as well.

Looks ok... but its kinda cheating.... plus I enjoy doing all the markings myself Grin Shocked Roll Eyes

Tom
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« Reply #189 on: October 23, 2010, 07:04:01 AM »

Tom,
That looks really sharp! Did you do the printing on tissue? I did 2 "test" models with printed tissue finish (another Viggen) and one with a colored dope finish (two coats sanding sealer, then the 2 colors plus graphics). The fully printed tissue with a sealer coat was 2 grams lighter and looked better. I "owned" them just long enough to get them the flying patch the next day Roll Eyes.
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« Reply #190 on: October 23, 2010, 08:31:52 AM »

Very nice Tom, don't forget to varnish the model before you go to fly it, this will protect the printed finish. By the way, it was a Super Cub, Fleet Canuck and a FW Ta152H that were made with this method. Turns out strong and allows some pretty hefty "adjustments" to trim without cracking.

Cool build mate, have fun!! Cool Cool
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« Reply #191 on: October 23, 2010, 12:50:51 PM »

Tom, beautiful job on that little jet!

Curtis
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« Reply #192 on: October 23, 2010, 07:00:01 PM »

Tom,
That looks really sharp! Did you do the printing on tissue? I did 2 "test" models with printed tissue finish (another Viggen) and one with a colored dope finish (two coats sanding sealer, then the 2 colors plus graphics). The fully printed tissue with a sealer coat was 2 grams lighter and looked better. I "owned" them just long enough to get them the flying patch the next day Roll Eyes.

Pete... just printed it on bond paper... I thought with the bond paper glued to the thin balsa this would add stiffness to the balsa and be close to the larger size balsa and planes.

I found a colored profile "online" and combined the profile with a 3 view. I then used the sample color (eyedropper) in Photoshop to transfer the colors to the 3 view and added the additional markings. I enlarged the size to 9.5 inches. I'll have to finish the whole thing with some Krylon Clear fogged on at first to set the colors and protect the finish.

This was a plane that I really liked the looks of... apparently there is a Spanish Demo Team the "Eagle Squadron" with a nice silver, red and yellow scheme that is quite striking.... may have to build a larger one with about an eleven or twelve inch wingspan to see how it comes out.

Tom
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« Reply #193 on: November 01, 2010, 07:53:47 PM »

While some tissue is being "stain" shrunk on the frame for my P'nut wing, I cut a kit for the F9 Panther. I want to get the plan for the combined Cougar/Panther finished and uploaded ASAP, but the balance point and trim tricks still have to be determined for the straight wing cat. The weather looks to be going to He**, so I might get it built this week.

I got a chance to try a mod on the Cougar this last Sunday. Most of the "jets" I've chosen to do have a very large amount of side area aft of the wing. Coupled with a short tail moment, they've all shown some stability issues that I was able to minimize, but not really cure. I cut down the vert. stab to the SCALE size (I had increased the area about 8-10%), removed a bit of nose weight and had 10 of 10 successful flights with NO fall-off into a spin. I had thought that a bit more washout might be needed, but was not the case (1/8th on both sides). I might pop the wing off and replace with a 2mm airfoiled one to see what, if any, difference it makes - other than more weight. Flight times were in the 15-20 second range in cold/humid late afternoon air.

The Panther will get a REAL wing from the get-go.
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« Reply #194 on: November 02, 2010, 12:42:12 AM »

Pit,

Look forward to seeing the Panther.... sounds like you solved a lot of the problems.... I had been leaving the vertical fin and rudder scale from reading other threads and only enlarging the horizontal stab. Thanks for the update and notes on your progress... will help me in the future.

gentle breezes,
Tom
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« Reply #195 on: November 02, 2010, 11:24:33 AM »

The "kit" I've made has morphed to an exploded view. The wing is nearly ready for "covering" - Stanfoil sanded in and glued together. Wood used for the wing was the first 2.5mm sheet that I found with fairly consistant grain/density - didn't bother to weigh it. Same with the fuz wood - "A" grain that was fairly consistent through the three plys. I usually use 1mm for the stab, but had a piece of 0.8mm right in front of me that was the right size, so I used it.

The wing is stretched over the scale size, which is why it looks a bit strange, and I WON'T be using the tip tanks at first. The first pic shows how I splice the center fuz ply to get the grain optimized. Also visible is the recess for the basic nose weight - a 1mm x 6mm dia. lead piece. Once I get the fuz glued up, it'll get tapered from the 60% chord point to the tail. Hopefully, the embedded weight will suffice - a test glide with the thing slipped together was, as expected, tail heavy, but not excessively so. A second bed toss with ballast equal to the lead piece was just slightly tail heavy.

As I mentioned earlier, I plan on "covering" the model with blue "Japico" tissue and making the panel lines with a silver gel-pen. The under surface will be in the closest color to scale that I can get without having to work too hard (these are for quick FUN, remember Roll Eyes). I'm targeting 13 grams RTF - it's at 10 as shown.

If this kitty flys, I'll be making a box full for the next big swap meet in March (Lampertheim) - both versions Grin. OKHA production is also "progressing".
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« Reply #196 on: November 02, 2010, 01:55:35 PM »

Hmmm, Pete that is very creative. Reminds me of the paper (cardboard) airplanes I made for some neighborhood kids. The fuselages were layers of paper with weight embedded between the layers on the nose.

Good luck on the production for the swap meets. I guess you are putting each together and at least test gliding to see how they go. The few gliders I made for the local kids were fright tested before they got them. Have fun!

Caley
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« Reply #197 on: November 02, 2010, 02:43:01 PM »

Yeah, it's a policy of mine to not sell or even GIVE away a plane that doesn't fly (at least a little). Getting and KEEPING any interest in modelling - even with (B)ARF's - is largely dependent on the "success" of the venture. I don't just give the planes a test toss in the backyard, they have to pass a full blown flight. I also cant't take the time or afford to write up a "trimming" instruction sheet, though I SHOULD.

I usually have a couple of cata/tosser'planes along at the field just to hand out to anyone who shows enough interest to at least TRY a flight. The first one is a freebie, the next one they have to pay for OR they can have a free plan to try their own build. I make myself available for on the spot assistance - either at my cave or theirs.

So far, not too many takers Sad.

I'm SERIOUSLY considering a move...
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« Reply #198 on: November 02, 2010, 03:21:31 PM »

Pete, I think you do a lot more than what people understand. I think it is just that the new generations are spoiled and lazy, instant gratification types. To get a full trimmed to the hilt cata glider for free is unbelievable. I gave one to a youngster and he was so happy, spending what seemed hours launching and chasing. My problem is that it takes me so darn long to figure out how to put the correct warps in gliders to get them flying even the standard 20 seconds I usually manage. It is a black are I may never figure out, but still enjoy trying.

Have you tried an indoor cataglider design? I understand they are only a gram or two for six inchers and float for what seems forever. Maybe you can try that for your next indoor meet, if they have a glider contest part to their meet. Thanks for this and the other cata thread. I sure enjoy following things.

Caley
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« Reply #199 on: November 02, 2010, 03:50:10 PM »

I#d probably do a lot more indoor if I had an affordable venue. There are a lot of places here where one COULD fly, but as a loner the "rent" for the couple hours time ... I'd have to change my name to Rockefeller Sad. There's a guy in Aschaffenburg (Dawn of Passion) who flys indoor at a Sporthalle, but I've only got one message from him in the last 3 years.

I DID connect with the indoor RC group in the next town (5 klicks), but they weren't to enthused with a FF floating around the one time I flew a trial run. Cost me 10 Euros for the 3 hour session.

That's why I'm SERIOUSLY considering a move...
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