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Author Topic: Blast tube for Burdov's P30 Pirate  (Read 5046 times)
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crashcaley
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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2010, 04:17:53 PM »

Tony, You just reminded me that Larry B had two stooges side-by-side last week. I guess that what you describe is what he was doing. Sounds like you would need that setup just to make sure you have enough resources available to make those flyoff windows.

Caley
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Tmat
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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2010, 04:40:32 PM »

I always use two stooges now when using a half tube for my P-30, Coupe or wakefields. You don't need it, but it is a nice convenience. I set the model in one stooge ready to fly except for the rubber motor of course. Then wind the motor in the 1/2 tube in the other stooge. When it is wound, I transfer the motor to the plane, remove the 1/2 tube and attach the propellor assembly. I can do this very fast now. I'd wager that I can probably match Tapio's speed with my system. And, if we both break a motor, my system (which is Andriukov's by the way) is way, way, faster!

I just grab another pre-loaded half tube, and start winding.

If you have a helper, the second stooge isn't necessary, but I don't have a helper when I go out test flying by myself. So the second stooge is my silent helper!

By the way (not to bore anyone Grin) but I modified my stooges so that the same two stooges work for all 3 classes of models with no set-up changes required. I just need the different half tubes, and different winders.

Tony
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Sunbeamtiger
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« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2010, 06:48:06 PM »

Mike, I'm not sure how you managed to add 10 grams to your model (compared with mine)! What did you cover it with? Mine is covered in 1/4 mil mylar from Aerodyne.

My next one will use a Starlink Kevlar motor tube, but my own design flying surfaces. I will try very hard to come in at the 40 gram minimum weight.

Tony.... It just dawned on me, I know where my extra 10 grams came from. I weighed my planes with a motor. Sorry for the confusion.

Mike
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Mike Richardson
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« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2010, 06:57:25 PM »

Mike, glad you found a good source for the small aluminum tubes. 1/2 mil mylar is considered heavy for P-30. It is what I'd use on an F1B!

Tapio, I don't need a rubber band to secure the rear peg when you use a rear bobbin. The bobbin prevents any side loads on the peg, so it stays put always.

I actually saw Gorban wind his model for a fly-off without the half tube (rubber in the fuselage) while he used the half tube all day for the rounds. My only explanation was that he wanted to be able to get away quickly. As it turned out he had to wait for a thermal and by then the half-tube guys were waiting too...
But the point is taken.

I agree with you on the 1/2 mil being a bit heavy for a P30 but I figure if that is what Burdov's plans call, that is what I will use.

I use 1/2 mil on my F1G's and polyspan on my F1B's. I guess it all boils down to what do you like best.....Chevy or Ford?

Take care Tony and again, thank you for the advice. This forum and everyone are wonderful!
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Mike Richardson
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« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2010, 07:10:57 PM »

Actually, Mike I don't use 1/2 mil mylar on my F1B's. I just meant that it was an appropriate thickness. I'm using Icarex on my F1B wings.

Weighing the model with the motor is a quick way to add 10 grams! In that case your weight is just fine.
One way to save weight on your next P-30 would be to use 1/2 mil on the bottom for puncture resistance and 1/4 mil on top.

You mentioned that you had some trouble covering with it. What glue did you use?

Tony
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Tmat
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« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2010, 12:10:51 AM »

I took some photos of my Pirate P-30 and the 1/2 tube system.

See them here: http://picasaweb.google.com/tmathews180/P30Details#

Cheers!

Tony
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2010, 07:25:22 AM »

Tony,

I agree with your analysis of tactical vs. max. performance rounds. However, I still do not find it good to have two different methods of flying/using rubber, one with the half-tube using stooge-attached torque meter, and the other using either one in the winder or winding by feel when you want to do it fast. I think that if you learn to master the former, then with the latter you either risk breaking your motors with insufficient information of the buildup of torque, or do not wind your motors enough. Even during the tactical rounds it is necessary to gain good altitude to find that lift... So a torque meter attached to the winder would be better. I just have not figured out a way to measure the torque at the winder, with the electronic means (that seem to be much more accurate than a twisting-wire meter)...

Do I read your boasting about the fast use of half-tube as a challenge? Should we see in Argentina if you really can match me in pre-launch preparation time :-D
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Sunbeamtiger
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« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2010, 08:06:51 AM »

Actually, Mike I don't use 1/2 mil mylar on my F1B's. I just meant that it was an appropriate thickness. I'm using Icarex on my F1B wings.

Weighing the model with the motor is a quick way to add 10 grams! In that case your weight is just fine. One way to save weight on your next P-30 would be to use 1/2 mil on the bottom for puncture resistance and 1/4 mil on top.

You mentioned that you had some trouble covering with it. What glue did you use?

Tony,

Thanks for the tip on the mylar, that was my original concern. Punctures from weeds and things. I remember talking to Larry at Starlink and he used 1/4 mil on his Pirate but I choose to follow the instructions...... an unusual thing for a man to do.

As for my trouble with covering is nothing more than me not being use to mylar, this was my first experience with it. The glue I used is Balsarite which seemed to work just fine. I am just use to ending up with a perfect job and I just couldn't achieve that. In my younger years I could cover a Gollywock or a Starduster with tissue and it would be perfect. The same goes for anything I did in silk. Then I moved onto r/c and 'monokote' and I swear I could cover a ball with that stuff without a wrinkle. Now it's 35+ years later and I'm starting all over so I'm just having a hard time catching up on today's technology.

Mike
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Mike Richardson
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« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2010, 08:13:34 AM »

I have recently returned to this hobby after a 25 year hiatus. I don’t know the sizes of the Arrow’s but they seem to be pretty handy things to have around.

It's OK, I'm like you.... returning back to free flight after 35 years. When I was at WalMart yesterday I spent a good 15 minutes looking at the arrows trying figure what or how I could use them. I'm thinking loading sticks for one. I even noticed that they stock aluminum shafts for $2.50 each. Talk about a good deal. I'm thinking about starting a new post to see what ideas our fellow modelers have come up with.

Happy flying.... Mike
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Mike Richardson
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« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2010, 08:17:09 AM »

Tapio,
You are on my friend!

Mike, imo, Balsarite is Balsawrong for covering with thin mylar. You want to use thinned down contact cement (some people use velcro adhesive thinned with MEK or lighter fluid). I apply 3 thinned coats of the contact cement and wait a few minutes so that there is still a little bit of tackiness. Then I can position the mylar, and re-position it as I need until there are no wrinkles BEFORE I start tacking with the iron. Believe me, you CAN get a perfect job quite easily.

Tony
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« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2010, 08:38:38 AM »

Hi Tony..... I have to comment on your Pirate.... What a great job you have done!!! And talk about thinking outside of the box, you have gone above and beyond. FANTASTIC JOB.

I have to ask, how do you like the Burly band burner so far? I saw a few more of them at this past NATS and most people seem to love them. At the NATS I timed Ed Vanlandingham's fly off flight for F1G, which he won but it never did DT. The other timer and myself lost it in the clouds. As far as I know he never did find it. I was told he had a electronic timer but I don't believe it was a Burly. More than likely the technology is good and it's operator error....at least that is what my wife keeps telling me.

My brother recently picked up a Burly but has yet to try it but he seems to be impressed, which tells me it's the way to go.

I am also seeing more people using the half tube winding system and I have to agree with you... it's looks faster. If you ever have a motor break in the tube and bunch up by the rear peg it can be a real pain to get out or even worst, your damage one of those impossible to see fishing lines. I think the main reason most people aren't using the half tube is the cost.

Later on I will post a picture or two of my Pirate but after seeing yours I am going to feel a little embarrassed.

Happy flying.... Mike
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Mike Richardson
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« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2010, 08:51:02 AM »

Tapio,
You are on my friend!
Mike, imo, Balsarite is Balsawrong for covering with thin mylar. You want to use thinned down contact cement (some people use velcro adhesive thinned with MEK or lighter fluid). I apply 3 thinned coats of the contact cement and wait a few minutes so that there is still a little bit of tackiness. Then I can position the mylar, and re-position it as I need until there are no wrinkles BEFORE I start tacking with the iron. Believe me, you CAN get a perfect job quite easily.

Tony

Thanks for the heads up. I remember the gentleman who owned Starlink before Larry purchased it used the Velcro cement and some of the guys at the field use Duco contact cement also. I just figured they did because of the cost and availability. I also know fellows who like me use Balsarite. I'll give the Velcro a try this winter and see if I do any better.

Thanks Tony.....Mike
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Mike Richardson
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« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2010, 09:02:02 AM »

Mike, my half tube system cost me less than $5.00! I took a piece of 1/2" O.D aluminum tube and ran it through a bandsaw to cut away the top part of the tube. Then I filed the rough edges and smoothed them with a belt sander. The notches in the ends were done with a file. the "T" hook could also be a Crocket hook and both are pretty cheap. The rear bobbin was turned on a small lathe, but could easily be made from some nylon tubing and a file chucked up in a dremel tube. You just need to be creative. I think it took me about an hour to make the 1/2 tube.

I like the Burley band burner timer so far. Very light and very accurate and reliable. However, personally, I'd like to see a start button. The method for waiting for a thermal by playing with the brass prong to start and stop the timer can lead to mistakes if you can't see the LED in bright sunshine like I did at the Nats. I accidentally reprogrammed my timer for a 1 minute DT - twice!

Since then after some correspondence with Dave (he's very helpful) I've got the hang of it. Even so, I'd rather have a start button. The two function version I just bought (for an auto-stab) has a start button so I'm curious to see how I like that as opposed to the PST.

Thanks for the compliments. Like most modelers, I can only see the areas where I'd want to improve for the next model...

Tony
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« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2010, 09:40:13 AM »

Another popular mylar glue is Balsaloc. It is water based and therefore less odor. Used just like regular contact cement with an iron. Available from hobby suppliers or, if you have an art supply store near you Liquitex Gloss Medium and Varnish is the exact same stuff.

http://www.dickblick.com/products/liquitex-gloss-and-matte-mediums/#description

Like Tony, though, I prefer the Velcro adhesive thinned with MEK.

Rey
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« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2010, 10:12:40 AM »

I love the Burley PST timer and find it simple and reliable. I haven't had any issues seeing the LED light, even in bright sunlight but I could see how it can be an issue for some (hi Tony Grin)

Mike and anybody else, I have a PDF Pictorial on covering with Mylar that I put together several years ago. I use velcro cement thinned with MEK. It also covers how to dye the mylar as well. Send me a PM with your email and I can send you a copy.
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« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2010, 01:37:30 PM »

Thanks Derek. Are you saying I'm optically Deficient? Roll Eyes

Tmat
-perhaps I resemble that remark? Grin
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« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2010, 08:11:03 PM »

Mike, my half tube system cost me less than $5.00! I took a piece of 1/2" O.D aluminum tube and ran it through a bandsaw to cut away the top part of the tube. Then I filed the rough edges and smoothed them with a belt sander. The notches in the ends were done with a file. the "T" hook could also be a Crocket hook and both are pretty cheap. The rear bobbin was turned on a small lathe, but could easily be made from some nylon tubing and a file chucked up in a dremel tube. You just need to be creative. I think it took me about an hour to make the 1/2 tube.

I like the Burley band burner timer so far. Very light and very accurate and reliable. However, personally, I'd like to see a start button. The method for waiting for a thermal by playing with the brass prong to start and stop the timer can lead to mistakes if you can't see the LED in bright sunshine like I did at the Nats. I accidentally reprogrammed my timer for a 1 minute DT - twice!

Since then after some correspondance with Dave (he's very helpful) I've got the hang of it. Even so, I'd rather have a start button. The two function version I just bought (for an auto-stab) has a start button so I'm curious to see how I like that as opposed to the PST.

Thanks for the compliments. Like most modelers, I can only see the areas where I'd want to improve for the next model...

Tony... Sounds easy enough to me, I will try making a few of them this winter. I have a band saw and a metal lathe so equipment wise I'm all set.

I can see where it would be tough seeing the small Burly led in the bright sun light but I suppose it is like everything else at the flight line. You go through check list and check it twice before you let go.

Thanks again for all the advice and help.... Mike
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Mike Richardson
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« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2010, 10:17:52 AM »

There are some additional photos of the P-30 1/2 tube in action here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/tmathews180/P30Details#

My nephew has gotten the hang of using the 1/2 tube system with the Pirate P-30. You can see him winding and flying in the photos.

There are a few issues with the prop assembly that I might work on. It's not as easy to install the T hook as I'd like. I will open the hole in the T-hook slightly so that the prop shaft goes on a little easier.

Also, with my Pirate, the nose block kept falling out when the motor had unwound. You can see my solution was to add a small hook and rubber band that holds the noseblock in place. While this does work perfectly, it's a bit fiddly to install with a wound motor. The Pirate comes with a Delrin noseblock that has a slotted flange that engages a small screw in the nose ring. This is supposed to act like a bayonette fitting to hold the noseblock in place. However, mine kept falling out anyways.

It's an issue that I'm not used to as all of my FAI rubber duration models use a rubber motor that is in tension even when relaxed and unwound. Thus the noseblock is held in place by the rubber motor. I suppose that the motor could be braided to keep it under tension, but it would also lose some energy to the braiding turns. I could make the noseblock a tight fit, or make some other simple holder like a spring that engages a pin or something like that.

I'd also prefer a small bobbin on the front rather than a T-hook like what I use on my Coupe (or F1B). The bobbin keeps the motor centered in the fuselage better than a T hook or crocket hook, or S hook or what have you.

Tony
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« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2010, 12:05:26 PM »

Tony,

Have you tried the Gizmo Geezer prop assembly? It has a built in rubber tensioner that will solve the nose block problem and it uses a bobbin that keeps the motor centered. Plus the spinner on the front is cool. My kids like it and have no problems using it.

Rey
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« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2010, 12:24:23 PM »

I have a few Gizmo Geezer prop assemblies. I'm not sure that it would fit in the Pirate motor tube as the diameter is very small. It might if it was installed off center to accommodate the side and downthrust?

Tony
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« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2010, 12:29:03 PM »

Tony,

Have you tried the Gizmo Geezer prop assembly? It has a built in rubber tensioner that will solve the noseblock problem and it uses a bobbin that keeps the motor centered. Plus the spinner on the front is cool. My kids like it and have no problems using it.

Rey, the Gizmo Geezer will not fit the small diameter motor tube of the Pirate P-30. It will slide in but the bobbin starts to rub on the side of the tube when you get to 2-3 degrees of right thrust/down thrust. Tony I tried to offset it a bit on a 3/4" motor tube but it still rubbed a bit. On the Pirate I don't think you can get enough side/down thrust for it to trim out. I'm sure somebody out there will prove me wrong Smiley
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« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2010, 12:32:39 PM »

Wow, that must be one small motor tube! Do the knots rub?

Rey
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« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2010, 12:34:55 PM »

Wow, that must be one small motor tube! Do the knots rub?

Rey

Probably but its is a nice smooth surface in there. Winding technique would be important. No big knots!
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« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2010, 01:10:57 PM »

I think the tube is big enough to accommodate the knots. And as Derek says, it is glass smooth inside so it is probably not an issue even if they did.

I might still play with the Geezer unit Derek with enough offset to accommodate the side and downthrust. Basically, I'd center the bobbin (or near enough) and work forwards. The prop itself might have to be near 7:30 on a clock face and near the edge of the noseblock.

I'd like to make my own prop hub with ball bearings as well, but that might have to wait a while. And then there is the gears....

Well, with a geared hub I could use stock F1G front bobbins and rear roller hooks eh? Wink

Tmat
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« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2010, 01:28:50 PM »

I might still play with the Geezer unit Derek with enough offest to accommodate the side and downthrust. Basically, I'd center the bobbin (or near enough) and work forwards. The prop itself might have to be near 7:30 on a clock face and near the edge of the noseblock.

I'd like to make my own prop hub with ball bearings as well, but that might have to wait a while. And then there is the gears....

Well with a geared hub I could use stock F1G front bobbins and rear roller hooks eh? Wink

Go for it and please post what you come up with. I am interested in seeing how far offset the GG nose unit will be with the bobbin clear of the tube.
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