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Author Topic: P30 free wheeling prop  (Read 2714 times)
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Sunbeamtiger
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« on: September 14, 2010, 07:43:15 PM »

I was at the CIA Annual contest in Muncie, IN. just this past weekend when a wonderful man came over to look at my Pirate P30's that I was setting up. I would rather not say what my contest results was, lets just say a 'boomer' took my plane off field and into the woods. Believe it or not, 4 hours later I walked out the 'trees, bog and corn field with plane in hand. Thank you Jim Walstron radio.

Anyhow this fellow showed me a wonderful free wheeling prop set up that I would love to get some more information on. I did take two pictures of the set up which I am posting. The problem is I don't recall enough of the details, I'm blaming that on trying to do too many things at once or maybe it's old age.

If anyone is familiar with this setup could you snap some detailed pictures that will guide me in making one.

Thanks....Mike in Indianapolis
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
P30 free wheeling prop
P30 free wheeling prop
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Mike Richardson
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2010, 09:23:17 PM »

Mike

Appears to be a rear driver system. The square x sect driver is a piece of brass sq. with a drive wire hole drilled at one end and the shaft hole drilled in the middle. Prop drive wire is installed in the end hole and bent to engage the prop and retain in the end hole and yet flip back to allow free wheel. The brass sq tube center hole is soldered onto the prop shaft. This solder joint must be secure because the wound motor is trying to break this joint in shear. Note the rev "S" hook.
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applehoney
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2010, 01:37:20 AM »

There is a commercially available f/w system which is silver-soldered to the shaft behind the prop - perhaps this might be it? Maybe Lee Campbell could help.
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Sunbeamtiger
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2010, 07:52:59 AM »

There is a commercially available f/w system which is silver-soldered to the shaft behind the prop - perhaps this might be it? Maybe Lee Campbell could help.

Thanks Tony..... I'll ask Lee at the next club meeting.
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Mike Richardson
Sunbeamtiger
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2010, 08:05:59 AM »

Mike

Appears to be a rear driver system. The square x sect driver is a piece of brass sq. with a drive wire hole drilled at one end and the shaft hole drilled in the middle. Prop drive wire is installed in the end hole and bent to engage the prop and retain in the end hole and yet flip back to allow free wheel. The brass sq tube center hole is soldered onto the prop shaft. This solder joint must be secure because the wound motor is trying to break this joint in shear. Note the rev "S" hook.

Thanks...makes sense now. I do recall the square x looked like aluminum and I didn't see any soldier residue but that doesn't mean there wasn't. If it was aluminum I don't know they attached it to the shaft, more than likely it was steel. Brass would be much easier to work with that's for sure. This is one more reason for me to pay closer attention and take notes.
Looks like I have another project to add to my winter project list.

Thanks for the reply..... Mike
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Mike Richardson
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2010, 09:56:51 AM »

Tony? I'm too dumb to be a Tony ....  :'( Grin
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Sunbeamtiger
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2010, 10:03:22 AM »

Tony? I'm too dumb to be a Tony ....  :'( Grin


Sorry about that..... I thought you might be Tony, the Canadian flag misled me. Grin
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Mike Richardson
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2010, 01:44:44 PM »

He he .... Grin

Somewhere, I have some sketches of this type of freewheel system and some variations made from different materials.

I'll see if I can dig them up for you.

Tony
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albisko
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2010, 02:26:22 PM »

hello, my solution is here:

http://picasaweb.google.sk/100588849894345200054/P30RubberPoweredModel#5490713242731118530
http://picasaweb.google.sk/100588849894345200054/P30RubberPoweredModel#5490713255193215410
http://picasaweb.google.sk/100588849894345200054/P30RubberPoweredModel#5490713259560310066
Smiley
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Dave Andreski
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2010, 04:52:22 PM »

This type of clutch has been around for quite some time. Jim Crocket Replicas has been making them for a quarter of a century or more. Attached is an ad from Model Builder August, 1986 ! I'm quite certain that this is the one Jim ( Applehoney) Moseley refers to in a previous post.

The photo that Sunbeamtiger Mike posted is almost an exact copy of the Crocket clutch. In fact, I believe it's a modified version to include a longer bail wire. I've included a photo of my P-30 front end to show that the 'body' of the clutch looks exactly like the one in post #1. It could be that the flyer didn't trust the original wire length and angle/amount of contact with the prop blade. I can assure you that they work just fine as supplied. The bail wire is .039", or 1mm in thickness and disengages smoothly and rapidly.

Many versions of this type of clutch have been made and used successfully as albrisko has shown in a recent post. Diagrams and instruction abound on the 'net' and in newsletters. I may be able to post some if I haven't deleted them from my computer.

These cluthes are still available from Lee Campbell ( Campbells Custom Kits) at a cost of $3.75 U.S.D. As Applehoney and the catalog mentions, they need to be soldered on. I use a silver bearing solder from RadioShack. They weigh an average of 1.47 grams. I was able to lighten mine some but not much.

Dave Andreski
Key West, FL
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: P30 free wheeling prop
Re: P30 free wheeling prop
Re: P30 free wheeling prop
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Sunbeamtiger
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2010, 07:26:50 PM »

He he .... Grin

Somewhere, I have some sketches of this type of freewheel system and some variations made from different materials.

I'll see if I can dig them up for you.

Thanks Tony, that would be wonderful if you come across it.
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Mike Richardson
Sunbeamtiger
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2010, 07:31:13 PM »

This type of clutch has been around for quite some time. Jim Crocket Replicas has been making them for a quarter of a century or more. Attached is an ad from Model Builder August, 1986 ! I'm quite certain that this is the one Jim (Applehoney) Moseley refers to in a previous post.

The photo that Sunbeamtiger Mike posted is almost an exact copy of the Crocket clutch. In fact, I believe it's a modified version to include a longer bail wire. I've included a photo of my P-30 front end to show that the 'body' of the clutch looks exactly like the one in post #1. It could be that the flyer didn't trust the original wire length and angle/amount of contact with the prop blade. I can assure you that they work just fine as supplied. The bail wire is .039", or 1mm in thickness and disengages smoothly and rapidly.

Many versions of this type of clutch have been made and used successfully as albrisko has shown in a recent post. Diagrams and instruction abound on the 'net' and in newsletters. I may be able to post some if I haven't deleted them from my computer.

These cluthes are still available from Lee Campbell ( Campbells Custom Kits) at a cost of $3.75 U.S.D. As Applehoney and the catalog mentions, they need to be soldered on. I use a silver bearing solder from RadioShack. They weigh an average of 1.47 grams. I was able to lighten mine some but not much.

Dave Andreski
Key West, FL


Thanks Dave for the great info. I'll be seeing Lee in a couple of weeks so I'll see what he has.
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Mike Richardson
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2010, 07:38:14 PM »


Great pictures and a fantastic looking plane. Thank you very much
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Mike Richardson
Chris A. Boehm
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2010, 09:12:09 PM »

I had to chime in here. The long bails on the freewheelers shown caused me some grief in the past, in the fact they they can touch the nose block.

I had a clutch let go of the prop while a still had a lot of winds in the motor. My solution was to make a little different free wheeler with a shorter bail.

Details are in my video on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/user/merlin2360#p/u/1/2l5DmGYSDQo

I am not saying it is any better. It is just the one I prefer.

Chris
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Warhawk
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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2010, 10:37:34 AM »

Chris,

I had that problem too. I solved it by cutting a small notch in the back of the plastic prop blade next to the hub, and constructing my bail to work perpendicular to the prop shaft, engaging the prop blade just outside the notch. Kept the bail out of everything, I was able to use a very short (1/4") bail wire, and get flawless operation. I figured it would work great with a spinner - the entire thing is behind the prop, so the spinner doesn't interfere, and you can still see the bail engage.

Justin
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Tmat
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« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2010, 11:45:07 AM »

This article from the Pensacola free flight club shows the type of clutch that I'm using: http://www.tpbweb.com/media/catalog/975.pdf It's the aluminum collar/cam pictured in the top right two photos. The aluminum part fits onto the prop shaft above the prop with a set screw. The bottom of collar has a ramp that engages the plastic prop in it's molded ramp. So far it has worked perfectly. You can make your own, or buy one from Larry Bagalini of Starlink models. http://www.starlink-flitetech.com/ You need to solder a small bushing onto the shaft below the prop to take the tension or use another wheel collar (that's what I did for speed).

Here is a drawing of a free wheel bail-type similar to that shown in the photos and video above: http://www.tpbweb.com/media/catalog/217.pdf
Pretty easy to make.

This one looks very easy to make and I might try it myself: http://www.tpbweb.com/media/catalog/976.pdf It's another variation of the lower bail using a wheel collar instead of brass tubing. You could solder the collar onto the shaft if a set screw makes you squeamish.

All the methods that allow for easy removal or replacement of the blade seem like a good idea to me.

Tony
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2010, 01:33:40 PM »

I wanted to check out those links, Tony but I'm having problems getting into the Pensacola site (and others) lately, although up till about two months ago everything worked fine. Keep getting the "server not found" message. I have the standard Windumb firewall and the firewall on my router active (ALWAYS have), but now I can't get into a lot of good sites. Anyone else?
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2010, 08:09:02 PM »

I have been making and using something very similar for years only I didn't drill the side hole in the collar since I did not have a good enough drilling set-up. What I did was to file a deep semi-circular groove on the front side of the collar and silver soldered a piece of brass tubing to do the same thing (picture attached). I also filed a groove fore & aft to accept the lower leg of the pivot wire.

Since it is made of brass it files and solders very easily and you can make one in 15 minutes once you get the hang of things.

You can lighten it up some if you grind or sand the fore & aft faces down a bit. It is important that you file a groove or flat spot into the prop shaft to accept the set screw to give a good mechanical connection to the shaft and not rely on friction alone. It has worked great with no problems.

Steve
www.indoorcolo.org
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: P30 free wheeling prop
Re: P30 free wheeling prop
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Chris A. Boehm
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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2010, 09:36:26 PM »

I have used the wheel collar method on a number of models, but only on the larger ones. The one I use now I can make small enough for a peanut.

Warhawk,

I am having a little difficulty in visualizing your short bail method. How about a sketch or pic.

Chris
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Sunbeamtiger
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« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2010, 09:17:33 AM »

What a wonderful response this subject has turned out. I want to thank everyone for their input and help. I have gotten some great ideas on this subject.

Thank you everyone,
Mike in Indianapolis
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Mike Richardson
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« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2010, 11:16:51 AM »

Forgot about this one: http://www.tpbweb.com/media/catalog/282.pdf

Another wheel collar based, rear bail free wheeler.

Tony
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CometsGallor
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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2011, 11:43:45 PM »

Here is a P-30 version I silver soldered onto prop shaft, I made it from brass bar stock and a paper clip . Seems to work fine so far.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: P30 free wheeling prop
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Sandgroper
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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2012, 08:36:43 PM »

I had to chime in here. The long bails on the freewheelers shown caused me some grief in the past, in the fact they they can touch the nose block.

I had a clutch let go of the prop while a still had a lot of winds in the motor. My solution was to make a little different free wheeler with a shorter bail.

Details are in my video on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/user/merlin2360#p/u/1/2l5DmGYSDQo

I am not saying it is any better. It is just the one I prefer.

Chris
.
Nice vids Chris,what really caught my eye was the evening therapy clip with the Bristol Brownie dime scale model-any chance of putting a plan in the plans section?

Phil
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Chris A. Boehm
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« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2012, 10:19:20 PM »

Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment.
As far as the Bristol Brownie, this is my third one, first one flew away, second one, very windy day (also known as contest day) rolled right on launch, met ground hard, very hard.  The third one is the best flyer yet.  I seem to learn as I go.  However, I cannot post the plan, due to copyrights and all but I can tell you where to get it.  It is in a book called Stick and Tissue Modeler's Album, Volume One, by Tim Bucher.  Hannan's Runway used to carry it, but I could not find it there now. Amazon.com has it but wants $116.52 for a used one.  There is a copy here http://www.samsmodels.com/site/books.html.

If you cannot find it, I can probably share the plan with you.
Send me a PM with your e-mail.
Chris
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