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Author Topic: Vintage Team Racing  (Read 9074 times)
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perttime
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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2011, 06:39:07 PM »

I just stumbled upon a Spanish forum thread on old team racers.
http://www.rcmodelistas.es/foro/aviones-vuelo-circular-f51/anos-dorados-carreras-t1044.html

If you are interested enough to view this thread, you should really take a look at that one...

Two samples:
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gossie
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« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2011, 07:39:23 PM »

A very good "stumbe" Perttime.    Some lovely old racers there.  And those old ones have so much class.   Smiley
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perttime
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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2011, 09:34:57 AM »

The Roger Reese plans that I posted in the rcgroups "Vintage & Old-Timer Plans" thread have been viewed a lot. Of course that is no guarantee that anyone will build anything. That thread is huge, and the best way to find anything there is probably through http://www.outerzone.co.uk/vinplandex/index.asp .

I just started a "Control Line Team Racer plans and pictures" thread in the C/L section of rcgroups. So far, the collection there consists of Roger Reese plans, a few other plans, and some photos I've found elsewhere. I'll post material at least from 60s and 70s there too. (Why there? Because I can mix large files and text there quite well.)
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perttime
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« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2011, 01:45:40 PM »

I've been pestering people on a Finnish forum for pictures and information on what people here have done in Team Racing. I have some "results", although these are not really old enough to call "Vintage".

- two racers in my town, before I was born: on the left Oliver Tiger 2,5 cc, on the right K&B Torpedo .29 power
- picture from 1978
- B Class, with rear induction/side exhaust Super Tigre 29
- B Class 2006, MVVS with mini pipe.
- Dalesman built by Pentti Nore, in late 50s early 60s
- Karbunkle IX (by Nore) Helsinki 1968

The last two are from 1971 "Criterium of Europe" winner Pentti Nore.
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« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2011, 06:29:00 PM »

I like the last black and white picture, nice mood in that, and a beautiful looking aeroplane.
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« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2011, 05:43:42 AM »

I like the last black and white picture, nice mood in that, and a beautiful looking aeroplane.
Totally agree!

I have a faint recollection that the library here might have a modeling book with a tiny drawing of that model, or something much like it...

I've mentioned, that I'm posting TR material elsewhere. Here's the link: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1530258
I don't really want to flood Hippocket with that amount of files. The plans I've posted there are in the gallery here too.

Here's a couple of 1965 photos from Ireland. The model is by Gerry Hands:
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Vernon Hunt
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« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2011, 08:59:17 AM »


   Perttime,

       I as a young man (1957) loved C/L racing. Your plans on this and other sites has got me very interested in building a racer. I have put a couple of designs on paper, and I purchased some supplies to begin building. I even found my original spinners, crutches, and control line accesories. So I thank you for researching and posting all the great stuff!!

   Vern Hunt     Modeller
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perttime
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« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2011, 10:22:38 AM »

Your plans on this and other sites has got me very interested in building a racer.
I'm not much of a builder myself, at the moment... To be clear, no plan or picture that I've posted is "mine": just things that others have made available. Right now I feel an urge to preserve that material.
.......................

Pentti Nore has just posted more of his F2C photos and some words, too. I'll translate.

"""""""""
Karbunkles came in different shapes and sizes, and with different engines (ETA, MVVS, Rossi, Nelson, Cipolla, Russians). The name remained the same: only the serial number changed. I built 29 of them from 1964 to 1991. They participated in races 122 times, including 49 wins. I am attaching photos of a few.

Aeromodeller originally published a drawing of a Karbunkle and only the name let me recognize it as my airplane. So, we made a drawing for the "Ilmailu" magazine and Aeromodeller put a version of that one on their pages.

"""""""""

A sample of the photos. "Not for commercial use by print publications, etc."
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Daithi
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« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2011, 12:27:06 PM »

I have absolutely no recollection of the '65 photo but that does look very much like a (lot) younger me (on the left wearing glasses)  Cheesy

In 1965 the Irish Nats were held at Casement Airfield (Baldonnel) and some of the events were interrupted by a Fokker Dr1 coming in to land (they were filming the Blue Max at the time and all the aircraft were based there)
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« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2011, 01:42:18 PM »

I have absolutely no recollection of the '65 photo but that does look very much like a (lot) younger me (on the left wearing glasses)  Cheesy
...
Hey, it is good to see stories appearing around the pictures.

I got that picture from a "Classic FAI Newsletter" distributed at http://web.me.com/flyingkiw1/Classic_FAI_Teamrace_Site/Welcome.html

They got it in an email from Joe Devenish, now living in Brazil. Here's a small part of the message:

With the launch of your Classic Newsletter and the interest in great looking models from that era.....I came across this photo taken in Dublin in 1965.

I keep in touch with a few old team race friends from my early flying days. Gerry Hand (white shirt) is both the pilot and builder. It was a great model, Eta 15 powered with a superb finish - design influenced no doubt by the Soviet models at the '63 Criterium!

...
..."
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perttime
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« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2011, 04:22:20 PM »

Hey wreckbender, or other Swedes!

Browsing my files, I found screenshots of a good looking Swedish FAI rules team racer. I must have taken them from the Lina newsletter that used to be available online. The design is called "Jaså" and must be from the 1950s. I think it is designed by Nils Björk who was the pilot for Kjell Rosenlund (Miss FAI, European Champions in 1961)

The plan shows a built up wing but mentions that a wing out of 10mm sheet would be easier to build. Then, a non-symmetrical airfoil should be used (flat bottom or semi-symmetrical?). The plan parts that I have are missing half a wing (not really a problem). Correct scaling could be worked out from span and length numbers.

Does anyone know more about this one?
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« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2011, 08:01:44 PM »

I have absolutely no recollection of the '65 photo but that does look very much like a (lot) younger me (on the left wearing glasses)  Cheesy

In 1965 the Irish Nats were held at Casement Airfield (Baldonnel) and some of the events were interrupted by a Fokker Dr1 coming in to land (they were filming the Blue Max at the time and all the aircraft were based there)

 
I flew in the 1965 Nationals in Baldonnel and recall that Fokker coming in to land. It had been flown from France and on the way had encountered rain which streaked the paint scheme. In the hanger, the guys were building a Pfalz D7 and a Fokker DVII and were finishing them. The lozenge camoflague (sp?) patterns were drawn in pencil and individual colours were numbered on the aircraft and the painters were painting by number. I lucked out and was given a gallon of clear dope by one of the "artists". There were three Tiger Moths with German WWI markings flying also. I had photos of all these aircraft, but lost them in a house fire 7 years ago.  Also lost a picture of my then girlfriend with Peter Bedell's stunt model.
 The full size aircraft were there as part of the filming of that great classic the "Blue Max".
 I still have some C/L shots of that meet and the photo Perttime posted is one of mine of Con Carroll pitting Gerry Hand's model.
If you were around then Oisin, it is likely that I know you - who are you?- Don't be shy!
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« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2011, 08:05:56 PM »

I have absolutely no recollection of the '65 photo but that does look very much like a (lot) younger me (on the left wearing glasses)  Cheesy

In 1965 the Irish Nats were held at Casement Airfield (Baldonnel) and some of the events were interrupted by a Fokker Dr1 coming in to land (they were filming the Blue Max at the time and all the aircraft were based there)

In that photo, the guy on the left wearing glasses is Paul Brennan and the guy on the right at the back is Peter Bedell. Peter and Paul were the top Irish TR team of that era.
John
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« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2011, 09:33:10 AM »

Well he's a ringer for me :lol:

Dave Boyd (Belfast MFC) - I had a tiny Sopwith Triplane at that Nats (or was it the all white PR Spit that I had managed to nick the fuel tubing in and couldn't get the engine to run?)

You forgot to mention the Rapide with the camouflaged outboard wings and if I recall a Caudron Luciole Wink Also the SE5 that the painter had gone crazy on and started lozenge camouflaging that too Cheesy

I ended up chatting in German with a couple of the 'Technical Advisers' (a pair of Luftstreitkrafte veterans) and did ask them why the Pattee Crosses on the D VII - they just looked at me and said something like "Don't blame us - we DID tell them it should have been a Greek Cross but they just ignored us"

beir buadh 's beannacht - Daithi
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« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2011, 03:36:21 PM »

Hey wreckbender, or other Swedes!

Browsing my files, I found screenshots of a good looking Swedish FAI rules team racer. I must have taken them from the Lina newsletter that used to be available online. The design is called "Jaså" and must be from the 1950s. I think it is designed by Nils Björk who was the pilot for Kjell Rosenlund (Miss FAI, European Champions in 1961)

The plan shows a built up wing but mentions that a wing out of 10mm sheet would be easier to build. Then, a non-symmetrical airfoil should be used (flat bottom or semi-symmetrical?). The plan parts that I have are missing half a wing (not really a problem). Correct scaling could be worked out from span and length numbers.

Does anyone know more about this one?
Sorry, Perttime, I´m not so familiar with T/R planes, I´m sort of a stunt guy Smiley always been (Kungsbacka, Alf Eskilsson). But I will check with other people, when I can.
 Best. Michael Palm
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« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2011, 06:52:53 AM »

I do like the plan JASA recently posted.

However, I am not able to see any date on the plan nor scale. I see it is powered by an Oliver, so determining dimensions should not be too difficult.

Keep them coming !
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« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2011, 08:15:13 AM »

Down the the bottom right is a box with stuff in Swedish but it says
span 70 cm
length 39cm
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« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2011, 08:34:27 AM »

At 700mm span, is it a Class B model ? Can anyone shed any light on the date the model was made the motor used? A date for the plan?
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perttime
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« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2011, 08:38:14 AM »

I do like the plan JASA recently posted.

However, I am not able to see any date on the plan nor scale. I see it is powered by an Oliver, so determining dimensions should not be too difficult.
It says it is designed for FAI rules and the pictured engine is Oliver Tiger Mk III. I have understood Mk III came pretty late in the 50s. The built up wing makes me think it cannot be too "recent": people should have got smart enough to build solid wings. Just guessing.

It does give the dimensions but the software I have is not very good for getting things sized precisely. Or, I haven't figured out how...
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« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2011, 08:52:37 AM »

If it is to FAI it is most probably outside the cut off date of December 1957 to qualify for UK Vintage Class B. It does, however qualify for Barton Classic, but any design including 'own' is allowed. Check Barton Model Flying Club for further information.
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« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2011, 05:14:20 PM »

FAI (F2C) rules don't specify span - they specify area but at 6.3 dM2 it's half of the requirement and the tank is also probably too large for the modern rules
 
   a)    Maximum swept volume of motor(s) : 2,5 cm3
The maximum exhaust outlet area is 60 mm2 at the cylinder liner projected exhaust outlet or crankcase exhaust outlet. If a silencer is used the measurement is taken at the exhaust outlet of the silencer. The piston face at the exhaust outlet shall not be visible from the exterior of the model aircraft when side or front exhaust engines are used.
     b)    Minimum total projected surface area (St) : 12 dm2
     c)    Total maximum weight : 500g
     d)      Minimum dimensions of the fuselage at the pilot's location: height: 100 mm; width: 50 mm; cross-sectional area: 39 cm2 - (wing fillets shall not be included in the fuselage cross-sectional area).
     e)    The model aircraft must carry a scale pilot head with minimum dimensions: height: 20 mm; length: 14 mm; width: 14 mm.
     f)    Minimum diameter of the wheel(s): 25 mm. The use of metal wheels is forbidden.
     g)    Maximum fuel permitted: 7 cm3. Only one tank is allowed, to contain fuel and oil for lubrication.
     h)    The model aircraft must fly in the anti-clockwise direction.
     i)    The motor(s) must be entirely enclosed including the cylinder head and the body of the carburettor (except the opening of the induction throat). The fairing or additional extensions to the motor shall be permitted to be exposed as long as they conform to the natural shape of the fuselage and do not mar the semi-scale appearance of the model aircraft. The only parts permitted to protrude from the fuselage are those to be manipulated during the operations of starting the motor, regulating the mixture, plugs, advance control, compression control, needle valves, tank fillers, etc. If a silencer is used, it may be fixed outside the fuselage.
     j)    Openings for the entry and exit of air, exhaust, etc. may be provided for proper functioning of the motor(s).
     k)    A cockpit or cabin with transparent windshield giving direct visibility forward must be provided to house the scale model aircraft pilot head which shall be clearly and fully visible.
     l)    The landing gear must be arranged to permit normal take-of and landing. It may be retractable during flight but must return to its extended position before landing.
     m)    The model aircraft must remain in a correct state according to 4.3.4 (a) - (n) throughout the full race, otherwise it will be disqualified.
     n)    Fuel tank, tubing and any associated filling valves or shut-off units must be accessible and capable of being measured accurately in order to check the total capacity as a unit. If the organisers do not consider the system to be accessible or accurately measurable, then the team will be disqualified.
     o)    The model aircraft must be equipped with an effective engine-stopping device for enabling the pilot to terminate the engine run before the fuel tank is completely empty.
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« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2011, 04:33:30 AM »

FAI rules have not been quite constant over the years. At least they started with 10cc tanks. According to a December 1956 Aeromodeller article on the "Time Traveller", the larger area FAI spec models were winning against British SMAE spec airplanes, using SMAE line and tank dimensions.

edit...

AHA!

""""""""
The very first International Control Line contest to include team racing was the 1954 meeting held August 20 at the Hague, Netherlands --- indoors!

The British T/R team had to compete to the provisional rules established by the FLA, which were quite different from the SMAE rules and much more like the current FAI specification. They called for 125 sq. in. wing area (8.0 sq. dm.), a 10cc tank and 120 laps, equal to 10 km as a length for all races.
...
...
1958 introduced the present total area rule (186 sq.in, 12 sq.dm.)

""""""""
http://www.go-cl.se/trh/trh_ps-1.html

The Jaså drawing says 8.0 dm2 total area. That suggests the design was done before 1958.

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whipandflick
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« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2011, 04:15:48 AM »

Very interesting reading. Was surprised to see Dick Edmonds fuel formula=

Paraffin     45%
Ether        35%
Castor      20%
IPN            3%

Think that makes 103% ?

There again John Oliver always suggested

Paraffin    50%
Ether       30%
Castor     20%
IPN           2%

Any more suggestions ?
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« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2011, 06:43:03 AM »

It sez:
Quote
Paraffin     45%
Ether        35%
Castor      20%
... to which 3% IPN  is added.

So it is 0.97*45% paraffin, 0.97*35% ether and 0.97*20% castor, but those figures would be more ugly to present...
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« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2011, 06:55:51 AM »

Yes I agree. I always ran my Olivers (Tiger and Cub) on 20% Castor (1st Pressing) whilst other were using synthetic. I suspect that as low as 7 -10% was being used, but old cast iron piston and liners whether hard chromed or not would not survive a real 'lean' run.
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