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Author Topic: Flying wing P-30  (Read 1945 times)
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modler
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« on: April 16, 2011, 09:46:21 PM »

Does anyone have a plan for a flying wing P-30? I know Barnaby Wainfain was competing with one for a while.
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Zeiss Ikon
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2011, 11:30:13 PM »

Seems to me Wainfan's P-30 flying wing was called Cyrano (for its very long nose) -- this must have been in the early to mid 1980s. It was pretty simple, a tube fuselage and reflexed "flying plank" type airfoil on a low aspect ratio wing (based on the photos I recall, it was at least a 10 inch chord). He used a pusher propeller with a latch freewheel built on the shaft (no modification to the propeller), as I recall. I don't recall what he had for rudders, but the wing had enough tip dihedral it might not have needed a rudder.

I was saw a video the other day of a Hobbit (plans are in our archive here, under Free Flight Sport, as I recall) that might make a spectacular P-30 if scaled up a bit (as I recall, it's 24" span as drawn), especially if built to minimum weight. Not a flying wing, it's a joined-tips tandem/biplane (aerodynamic layout similar to a Dragonfly or Quickie, low wing in front, but with the rear wing mounted at the top of the fin).
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Dave Andreski
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 10:32:18 AM »

The Swallow, shown here, was his improved version. It was featured in Model Builder, June, '87.

I can e-mail the article.

 Dave Andreski
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 10:53:33 AM »

Zeiss, Dave, thanks for the replies. I would like to see the article if you have it handy.

Bill. (Modler)
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 10:57:26 AM »

Bill,
e-mail me. I don't have it re-sized for posting.

Dave Andreski
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 03:24:16 PM »

The "Tailless Terror" by T. Bucher, is one that could easily be scaled up to P-30 size (I think it's a P-20 @ 18" span). I have the plan and will upload it to "Outdoor/Sport". Should be available in a few hours.

If you DO print out the plan, before pasting together, check the spacing between the uprights/crosspieces/ribs for equal spacing. The printout on A4 chops a bit off (A4 is only 81/4" wide), but should be OK on U.S. letter size
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 03:41:20 PM by Pit » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 05:09:23 PM »

I would have thought that anyone wanting a tailless P30 would have a look at Stan Buddenbohm's 'Hollowing'. I know that with a 36" span x 10" chord it would need a bit of scaling down but with Stan's reputation for making all his designs into contest winners you would have a head start on the opposition.

It was one of the 'Ten Models of the Year' in the 2001 NFFS Symposium.

John
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2011, 07:55:24 AM »

HOLLOWING sounds like it might be a gudun! Were plans printed in the Symp?
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2011, 04:38:05 PM »

Yes, they were.

John
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 05:40:04 PM »

Very interesting model! Thanks for posting it John. Lot's of clever tricks. CG shift of prop blades for glide, the trim etc. Typical Stan, simple design that hides a lot of clever thought and high performance.

For P-30 chord would be 8.33"! Shocked

Tony
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 05:48:19 PM »

That would be a great thing to "play" with! Have to ingest the plan to figure out how everything goes together, but seems to have enough to build from.
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 06:30:26 PM »

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the successful 'Cyrano' P-30. It's pretty similar to the 'Hollowing', but is a low-winger. Somewhere in the far reaches I've got plans for some of these...
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 06:43:41 PM »

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the successful 'Cyrano' P-30. It's pretty similar to the 'Hollowing', but is a low-winger. Somewhere in the far reaches I've got plans for some of these...

No need to be surprised. It was the first one mentioned back in reply #1 by Zeiss Ikon Shocked
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 10:54:43 PM »

No need to be surprised. It was the first one mentioned back in reply #1 by Zeiss Ikon Shocked

It must be a good night for ADD... I do believe I've reached a new level of pathetic there...
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2011, 12:58:35 PM »

As a lot of people know I will not build a P30 because the rules FORCE one to buy the propeller – but an aging brain sometimes conjectures when you don’t wish it to.

Tony, I had already noticed the 8.33 chord and decided that 8 inches would suit my Anglo-Saxon measurement preferences better without ruining the aerodynamic characteristics. Also (as seen in my catapult gliders) I have an aversion to building with tubular pieces so I thought a piece of 1/8 x 1/16 spruce, top and bottom, in place of the aluminium spar would be easier to source and, finally, changing the fuselage to a square box would allow the wing to sit straight on top without a wing mount.

I am all right again now, the madness has passed, I don’t build p30s.
John
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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2011, 01:14:25 PM »

Hepcat,
What about 8 3/8" chord? That would suit part of your criteria. I get similar responses here at work from Brian Eggleston. When one of us younger chaps mentions a dimension in millimeters, Brian always asks "what is that in REAL dimensions?". Old habits and preferences die hard it seems....

These days I'd suggest a tubular carbon fiber spar for the wing. Very light, very stiff and easy to obtain these days. I know that it falls far from the 3p UK price limit ... Grin

Tony
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« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2011, 01:20:25 PM »

But the fence posts are SURELY strong enough Roll Eyes Wink Grin!

John, I don't build P-30's either (field is too small), BUT... I just happen to have THREE P-30 props that are spinning away at nothing. TEMPTATION...
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2011, 01:45:25 PM »

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Old habits and preferences die hard it seems....

They're not dying, Tony - merely being maintained 'on hold' until the metric fad passes and sanity prevails once again Grin

Always good to cross the border and get back to real things such as Fahrenheit, miles and gallons - even if the latter are a little smaller than the Imperial!
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2011, 02:26:46 PM »

Keep dreaming Jim.... Grin

I feel lucky as I was of a generation that was taught both systems in school. I can switch mentally back and forth with nary a hiccup.

But the kids these days.... Grin

Tony
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« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2011, 02:46:26 PM »

They're not dying, Tony - merely being maintained 'on hold' until the metric fad passes and sanity prevails once again Grin

Always good to cross the border and get back to real things such as Fahrenheit, miles and gallons - even if the latter are a little smaller tha the Imperial!

Unless one has to perform engineering calculations. Then imperial goes from "sublime" to "ridiculous."

Pound-force and pound-mass, slugs, etc.

As much as I dislike metric for long distances, weight, and temperature, I very much like it for engineering/scientific computations.
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« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2011, 10:24:32 PM »

I know Barnaby Wainfain was competing with one for a while.

I ran across a minimal plan for Wainfan's Cyrano.  See below...
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2011, 12:55:12 PM »

>.... - merely being maintained 'on hold' until the metric fad passes and sanity prevails once again Grin

Always good to cross the border and get back to real things such as Fahrenheit, miles and gallons - even if the latter are a little smaller than the Imperial!
Captains James T Kirk,and Jean Luc Picard use metric, Jim, so it's Imperial that will pass, my friend.

John (fluent in both, happy in either.............)

p.s if Hepcat were to design a 9.5" prop, there is always the possibility of getting it made 'commercially' - in plastic - would that make P30 interesting, John?
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2011, 02:00:36 PM »

p.s if Hepcat were to design a 9.5" prop, there is always the possibility of getting it made 'commercially' - in plastic ... ...

What is the definition of "commercially available?"

Can props (that are worth a darn) be made with stereolithography machines or new 3D printers? Or is injection molding the only alternative?
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2011, 09:29:37 PM »

Can props (that are worth a darn) be made with stereolithography machines or new 3D printers? Or is injection molding the only alternative?

So far, I haven't seen a solid printer that can make stepless surfaces -- the finished piece looks like it's made up of a bunch of thin layers, with more or less square edges at the layer transitions.  Given a P-30 propeller can't be "modified" after purchase, the manufacturer would have to be responsible for doing all the smoothing to make the propeller serviceable.  I think for the present we're stuck with injection molding, unless we can find someone to build propellers out of, say, polyethylene terephthalate sheet recycled from beverage bottles (or similar plastic) and sell them commercially in quantity.  That said, with modern CAD and CNC methods making a mold isn't the drawn out, expensive process it was even twenty years ago; it used to cost $50k (and take weeks to months) to make, test, and correct a mold for, say, a single tree of plastic model parts or propellers; now, it can be done with CAD, modeling software, and CNC machining, and give a finished mold that will produce good parts on the first try in a few days, at a cost of only a couple thousand dollars.  Further, a small used injection molding machine can be had for a few thousand dollars; some of our more affluent modelers could probably get into propeller (and wheel, cowl, thrust button, etc.) manufacturing now for far less investment than would have been required when Bob Peck did it.
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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2011, 06:28:42 AM »

So far, I haven't seen a solid printer that can make stepless surfaces

I haven't gotten up close and personal with any of the new 3D printers, but that indeed is an issue with SL machines.

I have seen some metal pieces made from laser sintering (FWIW plastic parts can be made with this process as well)...not sure if they have been "finished."

Quote
That said, with modern CAD and CNC methods making a mold isn't the drawn out, expensive process it was even twenty years ago...

Yep. I am familiar with the tools.
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