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Author Topic: Keil Kraft Senator  (Read 31994 times)
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crashcaley
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« on: July 14, 2008, 09:56:36 PM »

I'm just starting my build of the KK Senator. I must say that the original kit is really neat and what is even neater is that Jim Moseley who sent me that kit, also sent me a duplicate set of parts he cut out and chose wood for. Absolutely wonderful! Thank you so much Jim.

I have put together the center section of the wing already. What amases me is the absolute perfection of the parts that Jim sent me. I can't figure out how he did it. Please Jim. tell me how you made the wing ribs so perfect and notched perfectly. Absolutely no sanding necessary to put together. Almost like laser cut parts.

I note that there are six wing spars. Three on top and three on the bottom. Jim, you sent me seven of these spars. Is the other just extra in case my meat hook hands did one in?  Grin

Also, there are four extra ribs. Did I miss something on the plan, or are these actually extra. I count on the plan 18 ribs.

Next I will do the outside wing panels and then work on the stab and fin. Pictures will follow, once I have these five parts framed out.

Again, thank you so much Jim. Questions, and plenty of them will probably pop up during this build.

Caley
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Dan G.
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2008, 10:48:39 PM »

Sounds like applehoney's done a stellar job of "doing service for someone else". Those extra pieces are a nice touch ... gentlemanly.

Dan G.
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gossie
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2008, 11:06:22 PM »

You will fall in love with your Senator CC. Wink
They are just such a terrific model to both build and fly---and fly they do.
May I suggest the wing off for DT as Jim does----I think?, or on mine the stab at just on 90 deg down---the stab is on the bottom if someone does not know this model.
I've had 5 of them over the past 10 years or so-----3 lost to 'Hung', and 2 sitting here ready to go one day.
Have you been supplied a good prop? Good prop. and model built light makes all the difference. 1000 turns wound in a blast tube (6 strands X 1/4 x 30 grams) and away they go. Or 8 strands of 3/16 or even 12 strands of 1/8th----they all work about the same.

Pics pleeeeeeze.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2008, 11:09:39 PM »

Dan, One reason why I really love our hobby of free flight is that it seems that everyone I''ve met has been such a wonderful person. I Sometimes wonder if this hobby attracts people of similar character because it takes a certain person to love it. I don't know if what I just said makes sense, but it seems to fit.

I just hope I can do justice to this model and hope it will also fly. This is my first free flight airplane that is considered a power model.

Gossie, Not only did Jim provide me with quality wood and precision cut pieces, the also sent along everything needed to get it flying, including the prop blank cut out into a form that only needed to be carved the rest of the way down and sanded. I still need to thin this down a bit more, then apply two coats of dope and then tissue it. This will be only my third prop ever done, and the first two were total failures. I do hope this one will work, as I don't want to use the plastic prop that was in the kit. Rather have the wooden one, as it lends more character to the model.

Caley

NOTE: The prop on the left is one done by Jim for an example, so I could try to follow it while carving the prop on the right.
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applehoney
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2008, 11:13:27 PM »

Hi Caley, glad you like the duplicate set of balsa strip and parts. I thought the Senator would be an ideal model for you to move 'up' to in due course (still do) but figured you'd get a much better model from 'custom timber' than that in the KeilKraft box. Keep all the original intact.... it could bring you surprisingly good money on Ebay someday; hope you're building on the extra copy of the plan I provided!

Hey, it was quite a long time ago when I put that together but it's likely I added a spare piece of 1/16" sq for the centre panel 'just in case'. Spare ribs - same reason. However I do like to place an extra rib in the middle of that centre panel to give added spar support for rubber band stresses - even though you've built that piece you can still add it if you wish. Notch the TE for it, then ease a rib - on its side - forward into the structure between the spars until the notches line up with same, then carefully rotate it up into place and hit it with CA or cement.

Questions are welcomed .... enjoy your build!
Jim

PS Wish I hadn't used that term 'spare ribs' .... now, after 11pm .. I'm hungry .... Sad
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 11:32:36 PM by applehoney » Logged
applehoney
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2008, 11:22:12 PM »

Gossie - I use a tipping wing, not a 'fly-off' - comes down almost like a shot duck but never any damage.

Prop? The kit has one of those awful clunky KK plastics in it .. and they do fly on them fairly well ... but I sawed and drilled a good blank from decent balsa, and part carved one blade to give Caley an idea of where to go with it - and chipped the other side of the blank so that she couldn't end up with two left blades (been there, done that!)

Caley - hoping doesn't cut it; it WILL fly! The beauty of the Senator was that it would almost always fly for a novice no matter how badly built .. it's only in recent years that it's full potential has been realised. You're five steps ahead for yours will not be badly built.


oops - just noticed Caley added to her post and told you about the prop ... women just love to get in first, don't they Huh

oops again - can't keep up with her .... "Don't know if the Senator is supposed to meet any weight criteria" No, just 'light' ....

Snack? I want spare ribs!!
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crashcaley
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2008, 11:24:49 PM »

Jim, LOL!!!!!!! Have that tiny midnight snack and just lie about doing it to your doctor.  Grin

I will slip in the rib dead center of the center wing panel. Didn't think of the stress the rubber bands. I usually sheet the center section with 1/32 to stiffen it there even though plans don't call for doing that. I did that with my NJAPF P-30 and I still had to add weight to bring it up to legal weight. Don't know if the Senator is supposed to meet any weight criteria.

Caley
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crashcaley
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2008, 05:28:41 PM »

Gents, I haven't gotten back to the Senator yet. I have a priority project for the kids at the Youth Center. My morning has been taken up by that and just might as well show you. This is my own design I call a "Simple Flyer". Super easy to build and to fly if you just make sure the glue joints are tight and you let the glue dry. Those two things the kids just couldn't sit still to let be done, so I am building things myself and taking over a flock of airplanes each Thursday. I rebuilt six that they had goofed on during my class, and the six I'm building now will make a total of twelve for the kids to have fun with.

Will get back with the Senator either later tonight or tomorrow.
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applehoney
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2008, 06:42:50 PM »

Mass production, indeed ...

Don't trip over that cable ....
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crashcaley
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2008, 07:43:47 PM »

Jim, That cable is my secret weapon to keep me watching where I'm going. Grin Actually it is for my fan, which I need badly with 99 degrees and 20 percent humidity. Yeh, I'm a whimp. Can't handle humidity over about 15 percent.

Got all of them cut out and they are drying with the dihedral in the tips. Got the fuse sticks drying attached to the stabs. Will probably take me the rest of the day to finish them. Just wonder how quickly those kids will break them. Smiley

Caley
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Dan G.
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2008, 10:37:05 PM »

Hi Caley ... that's pretty clever ... laying out the covering like you've done ... I guess a bit like the AMA Cub's method.

Dan G.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2008, 10:52:43 PM »

Dan, Thank you. This little plane is probably the simplest it could be. You take two squares of the wing and that is the size of the stab. Then you take one of those squares from the wing and cut it diagonally and that is the fin. I made the motor stick pretty much the same length as the wingspan when dihedral is put in. It will fly very well on one loop of 3/32.

When I chose to make my own plane for the seniors and youth building classes, I took all the simple ones that I've seen or built and took the best of all and combined them into one model. I was very lucky that it flew. I don't have a clue about tail moment and all those other things. I just used instinct.

I tried a few models with the seniors that required a lot of angle cutting, and that made it very difficult for them to put together. That's why I eliminated all but two angle cuts that are on the tail and very simple to cut once you are shown how to.

The six models are mostly done. Still need to put on the tail trim tab on and the motor hook on the rear and they are ready for the kids to have fun. Then it is back to my builds, which I am enjoying immensely.

Caley
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applehoney
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2008, 11:03:28 PM »

Quote
I don't have a clue about tail moment and all those other things. I just used instinct.

Caley, instinct goes a long way. There's a whole lot of truth in 'what looks like right, is right' .. it doesn't have any foundation in theory but it often works extremely well.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2008, 12:56:46 AM »

I finally finished the little squadron of airplanes for the kids. I've kept my promise and can now go on with other things. Piccie posted below.

Caley
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applehoney
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2008, 01:37:14 AM »

Cute!! Good work, Caley
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Dan G.
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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2008, 01:51:51 AM »

Caley ... you're absolutely right about those angle cuts being difficult to achieve ... many people can't seem to do anything but cut directly across the stick. I'll remember that (I hope) if I do any sessions with seniors. I'll tough-it-out with the angular cuts with the grade six students because I'm trying to teach them some joinery as well ... but that wouldn't be the point with seniors. Thanks for your insight and congratulations on your efforts.

Dan G.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2008, 07:30:06 PM »

Dan, I've come to the conclusion that when working with large numbers of people, the best thing is to provide the absolutely simplest thing they can put together, and then concentrate on trying to teach those who wish to learn how to get more out of their model.

I finally got the wings done on my builds. I'm lumping the SortaSenator Bostonian here as well since they are similar except for size.

As usual, I couldn't read plans properly, and had my usual difficulties putting things together. I ended up laminating a few pieces onto the Senator wing.

For some reason I couldn't locate the rib diagram on it's plan and ended up at first thinking that the whole wing was made up of sticks. Only when I came up with a question and went to the thread on the Sorta Senator, did I finally see the picture of a full set of bones properly and see that there actually were sheet ribs. So I chucked most of the work I had done and did a quick manufacture of ribs once I located them on the plan. This little structure is so very very delicate. I ended up chipping one section on the leading edge and had to laminate another section of 1/16 to back it up. Should be as strong as it was intended and not show under the tissue.

Will next work on the stabs.

PS Don't use CA anywhere near something you really like. I really like my cherry stool and somehow CA got from the workbench to the stool (while I wasn't sitting on it), and I can't get rid of the damage in any way. Guess I will have to put a pad on the seat area now to cover the damage. Sad
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gossie
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« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2008, 08:04:16 PM »

That's a SENATOR wing 4 sure. Cool
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applehoney
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2008, 10:56:15 PM »

Nice work ... Caley ... nice work .. on both

Sorry to hear about that cherry stool, though, but accidents do happen; remind me to tell you sometime of the carpet dope spill that I got away with many years ago.....  Wink
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crashcaley
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2008, 11:44:22 PM »

Thanks Guys.

Jim, I'm just glad I didn't get fumble fingers and happened to be sitting on the stool at the time, or I would still be sitting there, or walking around with a stool glued to my rear. Grin

Caley
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crashcaley
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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2008, 02:32:44 PM »

On the SortaSenator I ended up being fairly victorious with joining the wingtip laminations to the rest of the wing. Not so on its stab. Just couldn't manage to get things to stay together. So I was thinking, Why do I have to do all those joints on the outside. Why not just take two strips of 1/32 and laminate the entire perimeter and join them at the leading edge center where the plan shows a backing 1/16 sq piece. Hope this is a practical solution. Sure there are probably rules against such a structural change, but I am not flying to be judged. It will eliminate those three of four joints. Kinda wish I'd just extended my wingtip laminates to the dihedral break. Would have eliminated four more joints.

Caley
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applehoney
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2008, 03:20:24 PM »

Quote
Hope this is a practical solution. Sure there are probably rules against such a structural change,

Good thinking, Caley.. It's a balance of things... two lams of 1/32x1/16 might be a little heavier than one piece of 1/16" sq due to the glue joint but it could also be stiffer due to same .. and maybe using lighter wood will cancel out that very slight weight gain anyway .. and then you've obviated other joints, which is good .... sounds fine to me.

There are no rules against structural changes, you do what you feel is best and what you are comfortable with
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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2008, 03:36:32 PM »

Caley, if you can build a Senator (and some of the other projects, you've taken on) you sure as fire can fix the finish on that cherry stool!
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crashcaley
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2008, 05:41:46 PM »

When I posted the piccie, I should have included the second of the pinned down version. So here it is. I thought about the additional weight of the glue and the wood, but I think that once I sand things down a tad, some of the added weight will go bye bye.

All I did was a quick soak of wood and then pinned down the first strip all the way around. Next I applied Titebond glue. I just moved my joint position over about 1/2 inch so that the two strips joints didn't coincide. I do hope this idea works well. I will find out when I get the interior of the stab finished and the whole thing sanded. I'm hoping that it will retain its stiffness and not warp.

Crabby, I am going to make a padded cover for my stool. I am not good at finishes, but I do sew halfway decently. Still have my 1970 basic Singer ZigZag sewing machine to do it with.

Caley
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crashcaley
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2008, 10:42:19 PM »

I'm getting things done a lot quicker than I anticipated. The SortaSenator and Senator stabs are done except for sanding. I guess fins and sub-fins are next.

Caley
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