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Author Topic: Show us your P-30's  (Read 61667 times)
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Maxout
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« Reply #400 on: June 13, 2011, 06:27:07 PM »

Dave,

 That's disappointing about that winder. Glad I didn't order one...I was seriously looking at it at one time.

 Your removal of the wing incidence is of interest...can you give a further explanation? Additionally, have you had any exposure to Thurman Bowls' trim schemes? I know he takes PGI pretty seriously and that the reduced wing incidence is a trademark.

 How does the f/w clutch attach to the shaft? Any trouble with it coming loose?
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Zeiss Ikon
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« Reply #401 on: June 13, 2011, 06:41:59 PM »

I'd recommend this Model to anyone wanting to build a simple, well designed P-30.

That looks like a nice, basic stick-and-tissue P-30, Dave -- where might one find plans (or a kit)?  Google couldn't find 'em for me...
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« Reply #402 on: June 13, 2011, 07:08:06 PM »

Dave, nice model!
I looked at that winder too. 20 in/oz is more than enough for P-30 as you know (12 to 13 in/oz is about max for 6 strands of 1/8" I think). But it's not much good for anything else that's bigger. I was hoping that my Gizmo Geezer P-30 winder (up to 24 in/oz) would work for Coupe but I'm getting about 40 in/oz on my latest Coupe motors (Jan 2011 Super Sport) and have invested in a dedicated Coupe winder. Can't have too many winders I guess!  Wink

Joshua, Jean Wantzenreither wrote many, many articles on the basics of PGI trim (and the improved TOP variant) that I could share with you if you want. PM me.



Tony
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« Reply #403 on: June 13, 2011, 08:44:10 PM »

Tony and the rest of you Gentlemen,

Bear with me, this is my 1st post. The attached photos are of my most successful P30 so far, dubbed e-Pirate as the wing and stab are from the very popular Pirate P30 kit. The fuselage is made from balsa and Depron plastic. The Depron is lube proof (at least with the lube I am using) so the inside of the fuselage needs no finish. The balsa longerons were pre-finished with Nitrate and allowed to very thoroughly dry before assembly (wet Nitrate eats Depron!).

Stab is covered with ¼ mil Mylar, Wing is covered with Microlight, pylon is covered with Esaki, fuselage is painted with acrylic. Electronics are home-brew, integrating the timer, RDT and recovery beacon on one PCB. All up weight less motor is about 45 gms. I fly 5 loops or 1/16th TAN SS on about 1500 turns.

Dawn trim flights are around 125 seconds. Based on P30 notes from Don Deloach, I am short at least 20 seconds on “dead air” performance compared to a good P30. So, I look forward to any advice you might offer. For example, would replacing the Teflon thrust bearing with a good ball bearing likely help? What effect does the large drag of a P30’s prop have on choice of airfoil, wing aspect ratio, wing area, etc.

Mine is a familiar story. Flew duration FF in my 20’s, put my models away to raise a family and travel the world on business, and now have resumed FF duration in my maturity. The P30 event was not around when I quit modeling, so I decided to build a P30 to get started again. Boy what a shock! This is nothing like a coupe or Mulvihill to get going well. I have found the comments on this forum of great help in catching up on 35 years of duration FF refinement. Thanks

Pappy
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Re: Show us your P-30's
Re: Show us your P-30's
Re: Show us your P-30's
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OZPAF
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« Reply #404 on: June 13, 2011, 09:39:26 PM »

Thats an interesting contrast to Dave's model - innovative use of depron. Those mylar covered wings and tail look neat as well. Any nicely built model will grab my attention - new or old technology.
Tony I'm curious about the PGI method of trimming - is it possible to get a copy of the description of it?
Thanks
John
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« Reply #405 on: June 13, 2011, 09:52:23 PM »

Electronics are home-brew, integrating the timer, RDT and recovery beacon on one PCB.

Homebrew CCA? Those look like surface mount components...do you work at an electronics fab house?

Nice looking model!
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« Reply #406 on: June 13, 2011, 09:55:48 PM »

Google came up with this URL to PGI trim.
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« Reply #407 on: June 13, 2011, 09:56:46 PM »

Pappy,
Very nice model!
I'm very interested in your electronics. What does it all weigh? Is there a servo for the DT?
With a locked down model I think that a timer can be eliminated and just use RDT (if the range is sufficient of course). The only reason I can see to use a timer with RDT on a P-30 is for the option of auto surfaces.

Anyways, how to get more performance?
Two ways, get the weight down closer to 40 grams. And the second is rubber. My estimate for the maximum number of turns with 10 strands of 1/16" super sport (depending on the batch) is closer to 1700 turns rather than 1500. I don't know if you have a torque meter but you should be able to get 9 to 10 in/oz with 2010 or 2011 Super Sport. The extra energy will get you higher and the lower weight will help you glide better.
Also, the batch of rubber makes a difference. Some of the top P-30 flyers will use TanII for morning flights which has a lot of energy. But some of the best batches of Super Sport are close to the better batches of TanII. May/June 2009, Sept 2009, July 2010 and Jan 2011 are all high energy batches of Super Sport.

Ball bearings help, but not very much (but every little bit helps).

Despite the simplicity of a square box fuselage I think that there is a drag penalty when compared with a small diameter rolled tube. Look at Deloach's Pole cat Mk 10 or Dave Sechrist's Marie Super Skinny-E. Both are very clean models, built right down to the minimum weight. In Don's Polecat article he cautions against trying a long run motor with a model that weighs over 44 grams and suggests you try 6 strands of 1/8". Also, both of these excellent flyers are using the Peck Polymer's prop not the Ikara prop as used on the Pirate. the Gizmo Geezer prop is also very good. I think that the Ikara prop is very good for a shorter motor run (6 strands) but not as efficient with long motor runs. Others may have different experiences.

I strongly suggest that you order a copy of Free Fight Quarterly's 2010 P-30 survay. A ton of plans and articles on P-30 and many discusions and ideas from the best P-30s in the world. Well worth the money imo.http://freeflightquarterly.com/wordpress/?page_id=5#Books

On your current model I think you can gain some still air time with some better winding, and fine tuning of the trim.

Good luck!

Tony
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« Reply #408 on: June 13, 2011, 10:06:42 PM »

Dosco,
Thanks for reminding me about my earlier comments on PGI trim for locked down F1B models. The same comments apply to P-30. The basic ideas of PGI (and the details of course) are available from FFQ. From the earlier thread I had this - There is an excellent book available from FFQ that covers many of Jean's articles that outlines his thinking. http://www.freeflightquarterly.com/ffqcurrent.html

The collection of Jean Wantzenriether's articles are now available in one place from FFQ and for this I must thank them. They are always worth a read and a re-read every few years as a refresher course!

Tony


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« Reply #409 on: June 13, 2011, 10:26:58 PM »

Hi Tony,

Thanks much for the P30 advice. The whole electronics package is shown in the photo.
This was last year's model. This year's design is about 4.75 gm. I am operating the RDT/recovery
beacon radio using my ham license in the 400 MHz ham band. I get to use a smaller antenna than is
typical with the animal tracking type beacons, but get similar range by running a bit more power.

I guess I am a little chicken winding the TAN SS. I will work on this next.

Pappy
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« Reply #410 on: June 14, 2011, 12:08:46 AM »

Pappy,
I see a 30 mah Lipo, and what looks to be a pager motor for DT actuation? And I see s start switch and an LED?. Looks like a nice package to me.

Tony
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« Reply #411 on: June 14, 2011, 03:10:45 AM »

Tony and Dosco - thanks for the PGI link. That electronics package is interesting - good luck with it Pappy. You obviously like tinkering as well as flying - that's a good combination.
John

PS I have just read Tony's article - typically informative. Thanks again Tony. as an old Rc glider flyer(F3B and thermal mainly) with an ongoing interest in Free Flight, I find all this stuff fascinating.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 03:22:27 AM by OZPAF » Logged
Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #412 on: June 14, 2011, 06:20:20 AM »

When I started flying F1B in the early 1980's, there was a boom of PGI models going on in Finland. Maybe 1/2, or even 2/3 of the fliers flew with that setup. The thinking was that gadgets are unreliable, and that a F1B should not have any other moving parts than the prop. My experience (by looking at the others, I built only one model with PGI setup, and never got that working) was that with the minimal decalage, the models were extremely touchy to trim, and even worse, unsensitive to lift. I feel that if a model has 3 to 4 degrees of decalage, it much better slows down when entering a thermal and stays there, while the PGi models which were rather stable longitudinally, just kept flying through the lift... So give me that large decalage and VIT, thanks! :-)
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« Reply #413 on: June 14, 2011, 07:26:28 AM »

I never found my PGI models were insensitive to lift Tapio. We were able to fly them with aprox 2.0 degrees of decalage. With plenty of dihedral and Lindner warps they were excellent thermal sniffing machines. What I did notice was that they didn't exploit the lift quite as efficiently as the VIT models (didn't get as high in the thermal for example) but then again they often "found" lift that other models didn't so the trade off was useful. The biggest drawback was that they didn't fly as well in windy conditions. The VIT models could be launched vertically in wind and get high in the burst. The PGI models would get blown sideways a bit before they got going in the climb. Thus the windy weather performance was inferior. In calm conditions there was very little to choose between the two types though.

The other drawback was that it took longer to get a high performance trim from the PGI models. Every adjustment affected another portion of the climb or glide so you had to work carefully to maintain a balance.

But the simplicity of no moving parts (except the prop of course) was enticing!


Tony

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Dave Andreski
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« Reply #414 on: June 14, 2011, 12:47:05 PM »

I'd recommend this Model to anyone wanting to build a simple, well designed P-30.

That looks like a nice, basic stick-and-tissue P-30, Dave -- where might one find plans (or a kit)?  Google couldn't find 'em for me...
  Zeiss,
   PM me your e-mail addy. If you don't want to do that, I'll print it out and send it 'snail mail'.
 Can't post it 'cause  it's 'owned' by Flying Models.

  Dave Andreski
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« Reply #415 on: June 14, 2011, 02:10:38 PM »

Some pics of my RTF model:

1) Details of the wing hold-down, this pulls it forward so that the wing joiner rests in the groove in the pylon.
2) the VIT, AR and DT trigger lines. Initial setup VIT at 3.5 secs, AR at 20. The thick wire is pulled forward by the servo, releasing the triggers at desired times.
3) The timer is flush against the pylon side. Start button forward bottom corner. Programming connectors behind it.
4) AR details. The rudder rests against the end of the bolt and the nut.
5) This is my super-simple freewheeler, and the rubber band to hold the mose block in place.
6) There is still plenty of room in the pylon, in addition to the servo in the front, battery and beacon in the aft. Could fit the RDT RX under the wing, if I dared to put it to a model that DT's real slow...  
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Show us your P-30's
Re: Show us your P-30's
Re: Show us your P-30's
Re: Show us your P-30's
Re: Show us your P-30's
Re: Show us your P-30's
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« Reply #416 on: June 14, 2011, 08:41:08 PM »

Good Evening Gentlemen,

dosco, I do work in electronics but don’t work for an assembly shop.
I use a hot plate to reflow solder my SMD circuit boards in my shop
here at home. There are some excellent tutorials on YouTube that
show how this is done.

Tony, you identified everything correctly in the photo of the P30
electronics. The circuit can optionally drive a small servo such as
a SPEKTRUM AS2000 1.5 gm servo rather than the 0.8 gm actuator
motor shown in the photo.

OZPATH, thanks for the kind words about the P30. My building skills
are starting to come back a bit now that I have built a couple of new
FF models.

I guess FF electronics is turning out to be a hobby within a hobby. After
the flying season is over here in Texas (early October), I am going to take
a crack at building a 3 gm timer/beacon/altimeter compatible with a Midcat,
Pathfinder, etc., size CLG. I built one of Stan’s Pathfinder kits and I am
finally starting to get the hang of launching it, but our DFW flying site really
likes to “eat” small airplanes and a tracker beacon would be most helpful.

Thermals,

Pappy
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« Reply #417 on: June 14, 2011, 08:52:54 PM »

My collection of Saturnos, designed by Alex Cruz.
It´s an old fashioned stick & tissue construction, ladder box fuselage. They're very light, have to put some ballast to be over 40g. Viscous timer for D/T.
I left the auto everything and electronics for the F1Bs and F1Gs...

Beto Castrucci
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« Reply #418 on: June 14, 2011, 09:31:07 PM »

Very nice models Beto. How do they fly?
John
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« Reply #419 on: June 14, 2011, 09:32:37 PM »

Dave,


 Your removal of the wing incidence is of interest...can you give a further explanation? Additionally, have you had any exposure to Thurman Bowls' trim schemes? I know he takes PGI pretty seriously and that the reduced wing incidence is a trademark.

 How does the f/w clutch attach to the shaft? Any trouble with it coming loose?

 Josh,
  I tried this trim set-up after reading Bob Isaacks's (Duco Guru) advice for the Gollywock ll on SFA. -
  
  "Dave:

Wing at zero, stab at -3, 1 degree down (approx.) +3 right thrust, cambered (built-up) rudder for left turn.. Wing leading edge sharp (not rounded) 12" prop to Bill Henns layout. All up weight (W/O rubber) 54 grams..  C.G. @ 90%.

Bob Isaacks  SFA"

  He indicated that others were doing this on a variety of endurance ships. I thought I'd give it a try. Though the pylon is at zero, the wing has a small amount of incidence and I think you know why.
  I'm only vaguely familiar with Thurman Bowls.
  The clutch is soldered on using silver bearing solder from Radio Shack. No chance of it coming loose at these low torque numbers.
  
  The little white prop retainer is a Du-Bro product sold as a Micro Wheel Retainer for .047" wire, product # 868, 8 pieces for about $1.19. I really like them.

  Dave Andreski
  Key West, FL
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« Reply #420 on: June 14, 2011, 09:54:27 PM »

Dave, nice model!
I looked at that winder too. 20 in/oz is more than enough for P-30 as you know (12 to 13 in/oz is about max for 6 strands of 1/8" I think). But it's not much good for anything else that's bigger. I was hoping that my Gizmo Geezer P-30 winder (up to 24 in/oz) would work for Coupe but I'm getting about 40 in/oz on my latest Coupe motors (Jan 2011 Super Sport) and have invested in a dedicated Coupe winder. Can't have too many winders I guess!  Wink




Tony

 Tony,
   I have several winders too. I have an OLD Sterling 5:1 with a brake, a K&P 15:1, the Adams 10:1 shown above and an FAI Model Supply 'Sidewinder' with the 'Russian?' style torque meter. See attached.

   Dave Andreski

   
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« Reply #421 on: June 14, 2011, 10:23:22 PM »

Very nice models Beto. How do they fly?
John

The Saturno can do easily 2:30 in dead air. With 6 x 1/8" it climbs very high, it´s my choice. But can fly a lot with 4 x 1/8", as the 2010 argentinian champion did. I wanna try 10 x 1/16".
The plan of this model was published at FFQ #33, if you like the stick & tissue aproach I recommend it.
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« Reply #422 on: June 15, 2011, 12:02:10 AM »

Quote from: Pappy
... I am going to take a crack at building a 3 gm timer/beacon/altimeter compatible with a Midcat, Pathfinder, etc., size CLG.

What do you plan to use for the DT actuator?

In a quest to make light timers (P-30 and more recently for CLG) I have tried various things, with a variable success. It seems to me that solenoids (magnetic actuators) are a pain to adjust, as they produce quite a weak force, so the rest of the linkage must be light. Pager motors work somewhat, especially the geared ones, but they weight almost as much as the lightest servos. Have not tried to rubber band burners, but the large current consumption to make the wire glow worries me. My current choise (for P-30 at least) is the light, cheap linear servo from Hobby King, but that is a tad too heavy for CLG. Servo is about 1.5 grams, the battery (50mAh) about two grams, and the timer itself with onboard beeper another 1.5g. Adds up to 5...
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« Reply #423 on: June 15, 2011, 12:21:46 AM »

Quote
if you like the stick & tissue aproach I recommend it.

I second that.  My 'Saturno' trimmed out easily, climbs very strongly and does well.   Maxed out easily in its first contest  ... posted one max in the second event but was then damaged when the motor blew AFTER the blast tube had been removed    :'(

Now ready to go again.
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« Reply #424 on: June 15, 2011, 12:59:03 AM »

Tony and the rest of you Gentlemen,

Bear with me, this is my 1st post. The attached photos are of my most successful P30 so far, dubbed e-Pirate as the wing and stab are from the very popular Pirate P30 kit. The fuselage is made from balsa and Depron plastic. The Depron is lube proof (at least with the lube I am using) so the inside of the fuselage needs no finish. The balsa longerons were pre-finished with Nitrate and allowed to very thoroughly dry before assembly (wet Nitrate eats Depron!).

Stab is covered with ¼ mil Mylar, Wing is covered with Microlight, pylon is covered with Esaki, fuselage is painted with acrylic. Electronics are home-brew, integrating the timer, RDT and recovery beacon on one PCB. All up weight less motor is about 45 gms. I fly 5 loops or 1/16th TAN SS on about 1500 turns.

Dawn trim flights are around 125 seconds. Based on P30 notes from Don Deloach, I am short at least 20 seconds on “dead air” performance compared to a good P30. So, I look forward to any advice you might offer. For example, would replacing the Teflon thrust bearing with a good ball bearing likely help? What effect does the large drag of a P30’s prop have on choice of airfoil, wing aspect ratio, wing area, etc.

Mine is a familiar story. Flew duration FF in my 20’s, put my models away to raise a family and travel the world on business, and now have resumed FF duration in my maturity. The P30 event was not around when I quit modeling, so I decided to build a P30 to get started again. Boy what a shock! This is nothing like a coupe or Mulvihill to get going well. I have found the comments on this forum of great help in catching up on 35 years of duration FF refinement. Thanks

Pappy


I gotta have one. Any thoughts on selling a completeted model/kit? Or at least making the electronics available?

OtF'er
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