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Author Topic: Show us your P-30's  (Read 61742 times)
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DerekMc
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« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2009, 10:17:37 PM »

I checked my notes. For a 6 strand 9.6 gram March 05 plus lube motor I get between 1100-1200 turns with a torque of between 10-11 inch ounces. My torque meter is a DYO job so the exact torque is probably off. I usually get two flights out of a motor and after a good hour of rest I get 1250-1400 winds to the same torque.

As to winding I stretch the motor to 8-10x its length and hold for a couple of minutes. I then relax the motor and let it rest for a minute. Then i pull it very tight and start winding in the turns with my 10-1 winder. I start moving in at between 500-600 turns and come in slowly keeping the motor tight. It's hard to explain but as I move in if I come in to fast I can feel the torque relaxing. If it does then I stop moving in till it's tight again. I shoot to be at the hoped for torque when I get to the nose of the plane. I wind fast as well. I tend to put in 30-50 more handwinds as i wait for a thermal.

Derek
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crashcaley
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« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2009, 10:27:04 PM »

The rubber I have is called F.A.I. Rubber Tan Sport. If you're using the same, I am amased at your being able to put that many winds on it.

Tomorrow I am going to make another motor and try to stretch it out 6-8 times length, just to see if I can do it.

I'm also amazed you can use a 10:1 winder. I've tried, and mine gets cranky and wants to bind up. Maybe it is how you manipulate the rubber while winding that allows the use of this kind of winder. I will have to try mine again.

Caley
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DerekMc
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« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2009, 10:56:10 PM »

The rubber I have is called F.A.I. Rubber Tan Sport. If you're using the same, I am amazed at your being able to put that many winds on it.
Tomorrow I am going to make another motor and try to stretch it out 6-8 times length, just to see if I can do it.
I'm also amazed you can use a 10:1 winder. I've tried, and mine gets cranky and wants to bind up. Maybe it is how you manipulate the rubber while winding that allows the use of this kind of winder. I will have to try mine again.

Hi Caley, the rubber I use is F.A.I Rubber Super Sport which is a better quality than the sport rubber. The same manufacturer offers them and the Super Sport is what you want for serious contest work. It is more expensive but you will be able to get more winds into it. That probably explains the difference in total number of winds. Work on getting the most out of the rubber you have.

My 10-1 winder is a nice big beefy one. Most of the smaller 10-1 winders will bog down with a 1/8" six strand motor. There are several good quality 10-1 winders available but they are more money. Mine is a 10-1/ 4-1 hybrid winder made by K &P. The other is made by a guy in Colorado and sells for $50. The K&P winder is around $125. Pretty pricey but i use it for coupe as well and it works.

Winding rubber motors is as much about feel as it is number of winds. I expect to break motors when I wind and break them i do!. In a contest i want as much as the motor can give me. Of course that means that my planes need to be trimmed so they can handle the power but that is a big part of the fun!
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DerekMc
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« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2009, 11:11:03 PM »

I found a picture of my 10-1 winder on Mike Woodhouse's Free Flight Supplies web site at http://www.freeflightsupplies.co.uk/

The winder is under rubber accessories. I attached a photo.

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Re: Show us your P-30's
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« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2009, 11:11:47 PM »

Derek, I'm glad to know that maybe I am not as fritzy at this rubber motor winding thing, as I thought. I probably can learn to wind the motor a bit better, and maybe get another 30 or so winds. I just need to practise, and in the process, blow some motors to see just how they react with different stretches and how they react as I move in while winding. Just need more practise. Since I fly rubber powered models maybe four times a year, I don't get very much of that.

Caley
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schnellwilli
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« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2009, 08:50:59 AM »

I don't fly P-30 anymore but find the talk about 6 strand motors very interesting. In recent years I have been building most of my models to a size that works good with 6 X1/8" X 20 gm motors. I use carved props, 10D X 11P. Generally wind to about 2100 turns in the mass launch events. No blast tube, break the motor and you are eliminated. Never broke a motor but realize that I am not winding to max.

I am curious as to how long the motor run is on P-30s with 6 strand motors and what kind of props you use, ordinary Peck, Gizmo/Peck or Czech. I don't know but would guess that a longer motor run and longer glide could be achieved with a Gizmo because of the higher pitch. Then, again, the model may not get up as higjh. I tried a 10D X 13P prop on my Chambermaid and the performance was diminished. The Czech prop has a little more pitch than the stock Peck and a better blade shape. Since the blades are narrower, perhaps the motor run would not be extended. However it should create less drag when freewheeling.

I remember reading an article by O'Dwyer, "Playing With P-30s".

I think it was in a NFFS Sympo 10 years or so ago. O'Dwyer made some glide test under controlled conditions in a gym and compared the performance of the Czech to the Peck. He wrote that the glide was longer with the Czech. Lots of other interesting stuff in the article including Gurney flaps.
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DerekMc
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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2009, 07:26:04 PM »

I am curious as to how long the motor run is on P-30s with 6 strand motors and what kind of props you use, ordinary Peck, Gizmo/Peck or Czech. I don't know but would guess that a longer motor run and longer glide could be achieved with a Gizmo because of the higher pitch. Then, again, the model may not get up as high. I tried a 10D X 13P prop on my Chambermaid and the performance was diminished. The Czech prop has a little more pitch than the stock Peck and a better blade shape. Since the blades are narrower, perhaps the motor run would not be extended. However it should creat less drag when freewheeling.

I remember reading an article by O'Dwyer, "Playing With P-30s".

I think it was in a NFFS Sympo 10 years or so ago. O'Dwyer made some glide test under controlled conditions in a gym and
compared the performance of the Czech to the Peck. He wrote that the glide was longer with the Czech. Lots of other interesting stuff in the article including Gurney flaps.

I haven't timed the motor run on one of my P-30's yet. I use the gizmo geezer front end and props. It is simple and works well. I have read O'Dwer's article. All the talk and design differences for P-30 explain why it is so popular and challenging! Easy to build and fly, not easy to win! There are at least three strategies on setting them up based on motor run. (Long motor: 4 strands of 1/8, Medium: 6 strands of 3/32, and Short: 6 strands of 1/8) The two FFQ P-30 issues show all the amazing variety. Including T. Bowls full house gadget P-30, a marvel of engineering!

It is a cool competition class. And Stan Buddenbohm's record is flat out amazing. Those San Diego boys knew what they were doing when they created it.

Derek
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« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2009, 10:54:53 PM »

I've got a P-30 with Gizmo running 4 strands of 1/8. Can only make about 1600 turns, and the motor run is a bit disappointing at 90 sec average. It doesn't climb that well, but my launches ensure it gets ok altitude. One thing it is good at is finding lift. Last time I flew it, didn't get above 50' until it had been in the air for about 80 sec, then it just went up like a rocket. Fortunately the pop-off wing had it back down inside of 150 sec.
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PeeTee
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« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2009, 03:04:00 AM »

As I understand it from my expert chums, the Peck prop has the lowest pitch and is best for 4 strands of 1/8" (it's also lightest. Then comes the Igra red or yellow props, and I've always used these with six strands (and an under 60 sec motor run). Finally, the Gizmo appears to be a repitched Peck, and my son's P30 with 6 strands of SS and about 1000 turns (it was only just above freezing when we flew a couple of weeks ago) gets just over a minute run.

One of the problems with the Igra & 6 strands is that when fully wound there is a good chance of either a loop, or a very flat first turn, losing much height. The latter can be cured by a Gurney flap of 1/16" on the inner right wing panel. The Gizmo with its higher pitch appears to absorb the first burst better, with greater initial height gain.

I must confess that I prefer a quick climb & height gain rather than stooging around in ground effect, hoping that what you thought was good air actually is!

PeterT's sixpennorth
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schnellwilli
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« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2009, 05:53:52 AM »

Thanks, gents, you answered all my questions! I read the two part article in the FFQ and agree beleive it to be the most comprehensive thing ever written on P-30s.
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« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2009, 06:05:34 AM »

Bill

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the FFQ P30 articles, a veritable mine of information. It would be nice if Sergio could produce Parts 3 & 4 to cover all those marvellous P30s missed before, and the new ones that have since come along (like Helmut Werfl's geared P30 with VIT). Perhaps he'll read this?!

Peter
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schnellwilli
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« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2009, 09:41:15 AM »

Interesting what you said about the Gizmo, PeeTee. I won several of the Gizmo front ends in contests but have never used them on any of my scale models. It is an ingenious device but I do not like the Peck blade shape and the pitch is a little too high for my liking. The Peck blades have a very wide chord towards the tip where the pitch flattens out. This must create a lot of drag when freewheeling. I read somewhere that a Larrabee blade shape has low freewheeling drag.

Makes sense because the blade is wider towards the hub where the pitch angle is greater.Obviously, Irv Olm, the designer of the Gizmo, has access to plastic moulding facilities. It is a shame that he choose to use the Peck prop for the basis of his clever device instead of designing and making a more efficient prop to go with the assembly.
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applehoney
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« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2009, 10:19:44 AM »

Obviously, Irv Olm, the designer of the Gizmo, has access to plastic moulding facilities. It is a shame that he choose to use the Peck prop for the basis of his clever device instead of designing and making a more efficient prop to go with the assembly.

Well, in fairness to Orv ... he doesn't mould props but merely repitches and matches them .. and at the time he came up with the gadget the Czech props were rarely seen and the Peck - with all their variations (taken from the mould too early?) was the one in common use. In practice, I've heard comments that there is now little to choose between his modified props and the Czech as far as performance is concerned though I tend to use the latter.

Curious that you find the standard (?) Peck pitches too high, Bill - I always considered them to be pretty low - the Czech has more pitch. At for tip area, easy enough to reshape the blade to taste - though not for P30
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schnellwilli
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« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2009, 02:52:58 PM »

Obviously, Irv Olm, the designer of the Gizmo, has access to plastic moulding facilities. It is a shame that he choose to use the Peck prop for the basis of his clever device instead of designing and making a more efficient prop to go with the assembly.
Well, in fairness to Orv ... he doesn't mould props but merely repitches and matches them .. and at the time he came up with the gadget the Czech props were rarely seen and the Peck - with all their variations (taken from the mould too early?) was the one in common use. In practice, I've heard comments that there is now little to choose between his modified props and the Czech as far as performance is concerned though I tend to use the latter.

Curious that you find the standard (?) Peck pitches too high, Bill - I always considered them to be pretty low - the Czech has more pitch. At for tip area, easy enough to reshape the blade to taste - though not for P30

I must have not made myself clear. As far as the stock Peck goes, the pitch is too low, the pitch from one blade to another often different and the hole that forms the bushing should be bushed with brass tubing to prevent the eventual wear that will cause wobble. The advertised pitch of the reshaped Gizmo blades is too high for my liking. The blade shape of the Peck is not the best for freewheeling as it causes to much drag as I explained earlier. Yeah, you can reshape the blade to taste on a scale model but you cannot add chord at the point where it would be more effective, towards the hub. Bottom line is that Peck blades are a lost cause, the Czech has some problems and what we really need is a new 9.5/10D plastic prop. Gizmo must have the facilities for moulding such props but choose to use the peck for their front end. I think this is because most modelers, especially the scale guys do not realize the limitations of the Peck prop.

End result is that Gizmo sells lots of his front ends with Peck props. Since it is a lucrative product as is, why go to the trouble of making it better by mouding a new prop?
Another reason why I do not use Peck/Gizmo Peck devices on my scale models is that they clash against the few aesthetics sensitivities that I have left. To install an assemblage of moulded plastic parts on the nose of one of my stick and tissue models is sacrilege. However, If Mr Olm could produce a front end using a prop other than a Peck, perhaps an original with Larrabbe outline, I would fight to be first in line to buy one.
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applehoney
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« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2009, 04:43:22 PM »

I take your point, Bill, but I do not think Orv has the ability to manufacture moulds and make a new prop from scratch - merely to warm and repitch the existing Peck items

But .. I'll ask him

Regards - Jim
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schnellwilli
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« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2009, 05:12:33 PM »

I take your point, Bill, but I do not think Orv has the ability to manufacture moulds and make a new prop from scratch - merely to warm and repitch the existing Peck items

But .. I'll ask him

Regards - Jim

Please ask him, Jim. If he can make all those complex moulded plastic parts for the Gizmo front end, He certainly should be able to mould a complete blade Check out his winder/ counter/torque meter. Lots of moulded parts there too, some of them metal. I really think he has the know how and facilities to come up with a real good prop for freewheeling models,
better than what is out there now. Perhaps you could get him to make a prototype and give or sell us a few to test for ourselves.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2009, 05:18:03 PM »

I don't like getting into something I know nothing about. But, is it possible that Orv doesn't actually create all these parts, but has some outside company, possibly a Chinese one, create all these little parts? Is it also possible that the props are repitched elsewhere? Just a thought.

Caley
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applehoney
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« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2009, 06:44:34 PM »

Though this thread is starting to diverge from its titled purpose... I have copied the relevant messages to Orv together with the URL's, etc. and invited him to comment directly or indirectly to these points.
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schnellwilli
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« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2009, 07:17:08 PM »

Though this thread is starting to diverge from its titled purpose... I have copied the relevant messages to Orv together with the URL's, etc. and invited him to comment directly or indirectly to these points.

Good for you! One of the best things IRV could do for FF would be to come up with a good 10" D X 11 or 12P prop that has a better blade shape than the Peck.\ and is lighter than the Czech. It might be too much to ask but if Irv could incorporate a double tube shaft bushing and a Garami freewheeling device, I would be overwhelmed!
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danberry
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« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2009, 07:30:33 PM »

P30 was created as a small-field low-tech simple event. The prop limitations weren't a sad accident. The limitations that are consequential from using the available props are what makes the event so wonderful. We don't really need better props. If you want to fly terrific performance-minded planes on 10 gms rubber..... well, buy a Coupe Grin
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« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2009, 07:53:55 PM »

Dan's comments are very valid ..... if we seek the development of better commercially-available props for P30 then we are escalating performance at the possible expense of reducing participation, as some feel their levels of expertise are becoming outclassed; the event 'as is' is fine as it is. Lighter props for the class are not too significant, with a minimum airframe weight to contend with. The present Czech props are popular but Pecks still hold their own in P30 competition . .and the former are hardly a new development as they've been around for well over twenty years.

Whether improved plastic props should or could be made for other classes is a different subject altogether .. though in such instances I feel a good carved one would do as well, or better.

Maybe we should return now to the thread title ... "Show us your P-30's"

The one below was a variant on my 'Ellipsis' Mulvihills ... didn't perform to the same comparative level as those but made a couple of 'places' before it was lost into a forest.
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« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2009, 07:58:17 PM »

P30 was created as a small-field low-tech simple event. The prop limitations weren't a sad accident. The limitations that are consequential from using the available props are what makes the event so wonderful. We don't really need better props. If you want to fly terrific performance-minded planes on 10 gms rubber..... well, buy a Coupe.

You have a GD nerve saying that to me. What are YOUR credentials? I have been active in the P-30 movement from the very beginning and know very well the intentions of those who created the event. I do fly terrific performance models on 10 grams of rubber and they are P-30s. The P-30 movement started flying with the Peck props because that was all that was available at the time. . Later the Czech props came along and then the Gizmo. They can all be purchased at reasonable prices and used by beginners. Why not something better that can be purchased at a reasonable price.

Until your very out of place comments, we were having a very enjoyable technical discussion on this tread. Read the previous posts and you may learn something about P-30 flying. I have only been a member of the Hip Pocket for a few months but this is the first time I experienced someone jumping with the intention of disrupting a very interesting thread that was progessing in a very positive manner.
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danberry
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« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2009, 08:18:04 PM »

Easy, easy, easy! GD? Who is GD?
I meant nothing negative in the earlier post. P30 is probably my favorite event. Its certainly one of the most populated events. My point was that its no accident that its popular. I really think most flyers are very happy with the status quo. No one can get a huge performance advantage as the rules are rather restrictive.

I do know some scale fliers who wish there was a better selection of props for scale planes but that's a different subject?

Everyone knows that the props are a limiting factor regarding the available performance. A coupe will do twice what a P30 will. The difference is in the prop.

I am on record as saying I think P30 is a perfect event.
I have written nothing derogatory about the event and I take exception to the insinuation that I have.

Again, signing my name which I have no problem revealing to anyone reading this.
Dan Berry
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crashcaley
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« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2009, 08:28:27 PM »

Gentlemen, Please don't start arguing about things. It's not worth the effort. If you need to do so, please take it into a PM or start another thread. As Jim said, this is just a simple "Show us your P-30's" In other words, show a piccie or three and tell us a little about it and how it flew/flys.

Thanks Caley
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applehoney
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« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2009, 08:35:29 PM »

They can all be purchased at reasonable prices and used by beginners.

I guess that sums up the ongoing appeal and popularity of P30's over all these years - everyone is on a relatively common ground with the props available to us; no matter what faults some may have in production control they do the job as intended, even for those who purchase a stock Peck. Do we really NEED a better prop for the class? I don't really think so... but this discussion would be better in its own thread, if it has to be pursued.

Show us your P-30's .. please!
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