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Author Topic: Show us your P-30's  (Read 61484 times)
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Pit
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« Reply #125 on: May 20, 2009, 06:39:32 PM »

I tried Googling for a lost airplane tracker device, but I musn't be hitting on the correct terminology, as I'm not familiar with them. Anyone know a link I could follow to educate myself on these devices. Of course, at the amount quoted, purchasing one is a future endeavour. Caley

Caley,
here's one of the proven (and expensive, but worth it in terms of man /person hours saved) ones:

 http://www.walstonretrieval.com

Pete
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crashcaley
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« Reply #126 on: May 20, 2009, 07:04:05 PM »

Pete, Thanks, I just went there and looked and got my eyes burned. Whew! Are those little thingies expensive. I will never purchase one. I encountered my first thermal, just this past week in Perris, where my Senator decided to take a little longer low level flight when it probably caught the edge and lower part of a thermal. Generally, I never find a thermal, and really never look for one, so these little expensive gadgets will never enter my life. Gee, I can go out and purchase a Porche for that price. Grin

Caley
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What's stall speed?  Undecided
Tweedy
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« Reply #127 on: May 20, 2009, 07:43:49 PM »

here is another

http://txic.tripod.com/
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danberry
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« Reply #128 on: May 20, 2009, 08:24:27 PM »

I use a tracker in my P30. It is noseweight, so I actually cannot fly without it.
When you can't chase in a straight line it is invaluable.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #129 on: May 20, 2009, 08:32:54 PM »

I guess that if my airplane decides to go for the true gusto, I will just have to wave goodbye. I definitely won't run miles to find it. Just come back home and build another. I like it when my models. after a flight, decide to come back at me and land within feet of where I am standing. Had that happen once last week. Guess I am just lazy.  Smiley

Caley
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What's stall speed?  Undecided
applehoney
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« Reply #130 on: May 20, 2009, 08:59:06 PM »

Mine is a product of L.L. Electronics which has the advantage of a signal strength meter as well as the audible tone.

I purchased it some years ago from a friend no longer physically able to fly F/F - so it cost me a suitable donation to a cancer hospital rather than the full purchase price, and has repaid me many times over since that time.

Since then it has 'saved' me a number of models on many occasions - out in the boonies, deep into cornfields ... one glider many miles from the airfield. Only one lost was a P30 dropped into the depths of a large impenetrable wood - literally; I couldn't get through the undergrowth and was starting to worry about turning an ankle - or worse - where nobody knew where I might be. Replacement Tx cost $120 ..... L.L.'s service was outstanding - a phone call and it was on its way before they had received payment.

Most outstanding example of its value was when the Tx fell out of a model as a friend brought that back to me by chasebike at Geneseo last September. The tracker took us to this tiny, expensive object in the middle of the field, 'lost' in deep grass ... I was more than impressed.
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DaddyO
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« Reply #131 on: May 21, 2009, 03:28:49 AM »

I've just re-equipped with the Pim Ruyter system which I can also recommend Wink

However for anyone a little more cash strapped I've also used a 'Loc8tor' which are easily available on ebay.
Mine cost £45 (inc. 2 'bugs') Now this is not the real deal and won't find your models miles away... but if you are close and "know it's round here somewhere", then it's worth considering. Bugs weigh in at 5gms ish and are a little bulkier looking than the commercial systems, but have no wire sticking out to poke you in the eye when you least expect it! Best range when tested in anger on Salisbury plain was @ 120yards. It gives a good direction indicator and then is an audible peep from the bug end which helps. Only drawback I found was the receiver turns itself off after a few minutes to save batteries if it can't find a signal.

I bought mine because without a bug of some kind dead reckoning with a compass will not help if you land in crops or woods (which surround Merryfield, where I usually fly) Embarrassed
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DaddyO
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« Reply #132 on: June 02, 2009, 03:54:07 PM »

Recovered from the heat of this years Nats - makes a change from being soaked and blown away Grin

Did some test flights with the new P30 on the Sunday, but wasn't able to get in any comp flights with it. Despite left wing washout, right rudder and right thrust it would not co-operate with a right/right pattern instead insisting on a straightish or left power and left glide Undecided Undecided

The glide however is fabulous and even on 30-50% turns it was clearly capable of more than my old faithful... Adding right thrust gave a straight climb out which needed more down to cure the power stall (right thrust at this point was getting on for 3/32")

So back to the ranch for some careful measurements - My suspicion is a left bias on one of the fins although none is obvious.
I can probably live with the left glide (although being a freewheeler I'd rather not!) but left power is a big no no in my book for a duration design... Shocked
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crashcaley
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« Reply #133 on: June 02, 2009, 05:49:22 PM »

DaddyO, Great to hear you are recovered from the NATS. Imagine it was hot, but muggy also, making it icky. I hope my trip to Geneseo won't get to me with humidity. I am a desert rat, where humidity is just a word, and not a reality.

Hope you can get your model into the right-right mode. I prefer that pattern. Kind of always thought that left-left was for indoors. Hopefully your problem is only in the fins, and that a micro alignment change will get things going the right way.

Caley
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What's stall speed?  Undecided
Alexandre Cruz
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« Reply #134 on: July 03, 2009, 07:39:40 AM »

 Here are my own design Saturno V3. Very strong climb on 3 loops and fine glide with its high cambered wing. 150s on dead air with peck prop and 135s with Ikara.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Show us your P-30's
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gossie
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« Reply #135 on: July 03, 2009, 08:33:17 AM »

So you think the Peck propeller is better than Ikara?
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crashcaley
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« Reply #136 on: July 03, 2009, 09:02:48 AM »

Alexandre, Again, really nice looking model. Caley
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What's stall speed?  Undecided
Alexandre Cruz
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« Reply #137 on: July 03, 2009, 10:13:10 AM »

I do believe the best prop depend on the model flying and climbing speed. My model will climb on steeper angle but slower flying speed than most P30. Ikara climbs as high as peck on Saturno V3, but on faster discharge since it has much less area, my model fully unwound in 38s with Ikara and 52s with peck, gliding does not seem to be much different.

Ikara props are better in finish but considering my model gets extra 15s and the prop weights 1.5g less, I rather peck props. The same model flew with both props, being peck properly blasted for keeping CG position.
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gossie
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« Reply #138 on: July 03, 2009, 07:21:49 PM »

Okay, thanks for your reply Alexandre.
The reason I ask it that I have only ever built one P30 and it has a Peck prop. on it.
It flies quite well having maxed out and placed 2nd and 3rd in flyoffs here a few years ago.
I just bought an Ikara prop. and made a new nose block with the Ikara attached just to try it out.

Will try it out one day soon to see if I can see any difference.
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« Reply #139 on: July 03, 2009, 08:11:28 PM »

Gossie:

I believe that the Ikara prop is far superior to the Peck. It has far less drag and the pitch is consistent on both blades.

The comparison of motor run times is not valid if you assume that equal altitude is achieved. The Ikara will put you higher, faster. The Peck will cruise longer at a much lower altitude.

Pick yer poison!!

Bob
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Alexandre Cruz
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« Reply #140 on: July 03, 2009, 11:00:03 PM »

I do not understand why the comparison is not valid. There are many climb patterns possible, some going to the same altitude in different times. The energy from rubber is the same in both cases, climb high comes from what remains from the energy in the rubber less the energy taken from flying (drag and weight shift x distance). Drag and weight shift multiplied by distance must be minimum for optimal climb. Going too fast will reduce distance (next to vertical) but increase drag and mainly weight shift a lot, going too slow will decrease drag and shift but make you fly a long distance. So there is an optimal climb path (angle and speed) that depends on the model wing area and airfoil. What is the wing area of your model? How is the airfoil, a lot of camber?

 As I said my model will climb nearly the same on both props but peck will take longer to get me there, what is good because that is extra flight time. Ikara prop is indeed far more well finished and balanced. Ikara props will discharge faster as they have less blade area but I do not know about pitch, a little more than peck I think.
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gossie
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« Reply #141 on: July 04, 2009, 12:24:50 AM »

Gossie:
I believe that the Ikara prop is far superior to the Peck. It has far less drag and the pitch is consistent on both blades.
The comparison of motor run times is not valid if you assume that equal altitude is achieved. The Ikara will put you higher, faster. The Peck will cruise longer at a much lower altitude.

Pick yer poison!!

Bob

This old thing of mine is a REAL cruiser.....it's only ever run 4 strands of 1/8th Tan2 and so gives a VERY cruisey long run......but I will try both just to see what happens.
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« Reply #142 on: July 04, 2009, 12:36:20 AM »

Mr Cruz:

I must disagree with your assertion that either prop will deliver the SAME altitude with differing time elements involved.

The Peck prop, with a wider blade and inconsistent pitch will not get your model as high as will the Ikara with less frontal area and consistent pitch.

Obviously, the Peck prop turns more slowly (assuming equal strands and turns) and the motor run is longer because it is pitched differently AND develops more drag.

In the States, we often fly in conditions where a boundary layer of air exists maybe 100' above ground level. It is necessary to penetrate that layer to assure a reliable max. An Ikara will "punch thru" the layer with authority, a Peck will sometimes fail to make it into the layer.

Your theory of taking a longer time to reach altitude certainly works well for INDOOR models, where weather elements effect flight times, I prefer altitude as a measure of reliability.

Guru
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ricardo
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« Reply #143 on: July 04, 2009, 06:25:15 AM »

Gentlemen, Mr. Cruz has presented evidence that the Peck works better than the Ikara on HIS model. If theory and practice differ, guess which is wrong.

Rather than denigrate his efforts, the really interesting question is

... what is it about his model that makes the Peck superior

and

.. what is it about His Guruness' model that makes the Ikara superior. Wing Area? Span? Weight?

Lets have some numbers, or better still, plans of the 2 different models.

Pontificating Prophecy .. Roll Eyes

Energy in rubber is converted to height energy, minus the energy lost along the way, drag x distance.

If 2 models of the same weight reach the same height with the same climb angle (ie the same distance travelled) but one gets there twice as fast as the other, the faster one will have used up much more energy cos greater drag.

The 2 models will have to be very different to do this. eg the slower prop will need more blade area and the model needs to be more efficient to climb on less power. But the slower model has a distinct advantage provided it is efficient enough to climb all the way to the end of its motor run.

Anyone have accurate drawings of the Peck & Ikara props?

Of course, His Guruness is perfectly justified in criticising the Peck for inconsistency and poor manufacture but that doesn't mean it might be better matched to certain models.
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Alexandre Cruz
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« Reply #144 on: July 04, 2009, 09:51:43 AM »

That is the point Ricardo. Ikara prop will not always be best choice, that depends on the model. Going 100ft is pretty fast with the rubber torque peak and a strong launch.

I simply do not understand why can`t different patterns of climb go nearly the same height. I agree the pitch is incosistent but there is no evidence the Ikara pitch and blade area is good to my model. Actually each model would have an optimum prop, with different pitch, pitch distribuction and blade area distribuction. Peck prop does have more drag or at least requires more torque to spin however, if you decompose speed vectors on a prop flying you will see most of the torque comes from lift decomposition. Requiring more torque does not necessarly means the prop in inferior. Even more when flying rubber power where you have a limited number of prop turns not rpm or power as on engines.

If going fast is so important why F1G models will take 44s to discharge 400 turns? The prop could be done a way to discharge rubber in 10s....it is like this beacuse the model will go nearly as high and the extra 34s are important. Prop is always set up to the model for getting best combination between higher altitude and discharge time.

Thinking indoor is surely easier, outdoor there are two scenarios: sink ore raising air. In raising air it is best to discharge slower as your model will go higher, in sink is best to go faster. The point is, my model will not climb slowly, it flyes slower (climb ratio is very high). I have flown it against many P30 and it will outclimb them all, always on 3 loops.

Reaching the same altitude witth different times is not a therory of mine is fact on my model.

The main difference between my model and others is the airfoil, my model will fly with a much higher CL value, so will fly slower.
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Tmat
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« Reply #145 on: July 04, 2009, 12:00:44 PM »

I believe that there has been quite a bit of P30 prop analysis done in FFQ with both the Ikara and Peck props analyzed. If I recall, the Peck might be better for longer motor runs.

Alexandre, do you have a plan of your model?
I'm interested in the airfoil. What is the thickness and camber?

Tony
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PeeTee
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« Reply #146 on: July 04, 2009, 12:22:02 PM »

Quote
I believe that there has been quite a bit of P30 prop analysis done in FFQ

Similarly there has been a fair bit of practical testing done over here in sunny England by some of the noted P30 flyers. I'm told that the Peck has the lowest pitch (but greater blade area) and performs best with 4 or 5 strand (1/8") motors for a long run. the IGRA (ikara) prop has a higher pitch and is better suited to 6 strand motors. Last but by no means least is the Gizmo prop which is a repitched Peck, and this has the highest P/D ratio of the three; on similar turns it give a 10-15 sec longer run than the IGRA.

I'm also told by those who know better than me, that the higher pitched props create less drag in the glide. As was said in earlier posts, it'll be horses for courses, matching the prop to the model, and the motor. For what it's worth, I've only ever used IGRA and Gizmo props, and am far from being a noted P30 flyer Grin Grin

Peter
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« Reply #147 on: July 04, 2009, 01:17:02 PM »

150s on dead air with peck prop and 135s with Ikara.
Mr Cruz offers a comparison of flight times on the same model with exchanged propellers. Using his numbers, he experienced a 9% improvement in time aloft with the Peck prop.

Several questions develop.
1.If the Ikara prop reaches altitude much faster than the Peck, i.e. the model is gliding MUCH SOONER, is the glide performance not better with the Ikara??
2.If the model reaches THE SAME ALTITUDE with the Peck prop is the glide performance not worse with the Peck??
3.For Mr Cruz theory (and practice) to work, both 1. and 2. must apply... i.e. the assumption that the model reaches the SAME ALTITUDE with either propellor, a comparison of GLIDE PERFORMANCE must be offered.
4. The question now becomes in which mode (power or gliding) is the Peck superior by 9%? Assuming the 9% difference is in the power phase only and the model reaches THE SAME ALTITUDE, the models glide performance must be the same with either prop... an assertion I cannot abide.
5.We know, from Cruz' observation that his Peck motor run is longer (undoubtedly because of the lower pitched Peck with it's wide blade) Somehow we need an explanation of how the wider blade prop with its higher drag manages to tie the smaller frontal area of the Ikara in the glide Huh Huh
6.Also of interest is the observation that the altitude reached is the SAME with either prop and if the motor was wound to the same torque value for either propellor. I.E. an altitude measuring device and a torque meter??

THE CURIOUS NEED TO KNOW!!

Guru
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Alexandre Cruz
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« Reply #148 on: July 04, 2009, 07:01:05 PM »

As I said the altitude is nearly the same (peck may even go higher), I have nerver measured. I THINK the advantage is in climb but I just ordered an altimeter and a 50mAh battery lets measure instead of guessing. The model will be 5g heavier than minimum, that will go againt peck prop but lets see what happens....

Regarding to rubber the result is consistent since both motor were from the same date and wound with torquimeter to their maximum (competition).
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« Reply #149 on: July 04, 2009, 07:16:55 PM »

Mr Cruz offers a comparison of flight times on the same model with exchanged propellers. Using his numbers, he
<snip> .. loadsa questions and good stuff
If someone can get me
- accurate drawings of the Peck and IGRA
- dimensioned 3 views of the Cruz & Guru models
- rubber details. Alex, what are your 3 loops?
I'll pop them into a spreadsheet on glide & rubber performance with prop analyser and do more pseudo pontificating.

and the Gizmo prop too.
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