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Author Topic: Show us your P-30's  (Read 61847 times)
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albisko
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« Reply #225 on: July 29, 2010, 02:34:16 AM »


Our national rules accord minimal weight 50g (empty) and 10g rubber
"black centroplan" model
wing 15.7gram,airfoil Benedek 6356b modif
tail 2.2gram
fuse 20gram
head and prop 7gram
balast to minimal weight 5gram
rubber TAN super sport 9,5g 1,5x1 10 loop
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #226 on: July 29, 2010, 03:48:38 AM »

Our national rules accord minimal weight 50g (empty) and 10g rubber

This is interesting, since here in Finland we also changed the minimum weight to 50 grams a couple of years ago. So I'd like to know, how long have you had that "increased" minimum weight, how did you end up with it, and how do you find it work (compared to 40 grams)?
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albisko
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« Reply #227 on: July 29, 2010, 05:28:06 AM »

Models was built by actual rules (50g empty) no problem built 40g and I don´t know whether the minimum weigh 40g in our rules.
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applehoney
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« Reply #228 on: July 29, 2010, 09:26:51 AM »

However it works .. if P30's increase to 50 grams in North America then it will be a class I turn away from, much as I like it. Being mandated to build heavy models does not sit well with me.

That aside ... beautiful airframes, Albisko!
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Pit
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« Reply #229 on: July 29, 2010, 09:46:20 AM »

However it works .. if P30's increase to 50 grams in North America then it will be a class I turn away from, much as I like it. Being mandated to build heavy models does not sit well with me.

That aside ... beautiful airframes, Albisko!

Especially when most of the available kits (that I am aware of) can be built UNDER 40 grams. I might just build the Saturno this year "just to see". 50 grams DOES make things easier if there is no EASILY accessible light wood, but as a MINIMUM!?! (Where is that "rules"thread?)
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #230 on: July 29, 2010, 10:34:09 AM »

There were two reasons to increase the minimum weight of P-30 here in Finland:

1) higher minimum makes the playfield more equal, as even beginners can build to minimum weight.
2) heavier models make them stronger, hence enabling more efficient methods for DT (bunting, folding wings up, etc.)

We have not found any ill effects to the flight performance from the higher minimum weight.
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Tmat
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« Reply #231 on: July 29, 2010, 11:05:59 AM »

At 50 grams I'd hardly call a P-30 a "heavy model" Jim. You could make the chord a bit wider and still have a low wing loading.

I'm not sure that 50 grams is really needed. 45 grams is a compromise? I'm not sure that the impetus to change to 50 grams is strong in North America.

Tony
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Maxout
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« Reply #232 on: July 29, 2010, 11:06:51 AM »

50 grams DOES make things easier if there is no EASILY accessible light wood, but as a MINIMUM!?! (Where is that "rules"thread?)

Not really. My last P-30 weighed 28 g when finished. It could have been lighter, but I wanted the wing strong enough to handle wind (this was part of a challenge, but that's not the point). Bottom line, you could get a P-30 with VIT, AR, DPR, tracker, and pop off wing all under 40 g with no problems using a Tomy timer. We should note that they Ikara P-30 prop weighs more than the Peck and is of lower pitch. My preference is for the re-pitched Gizmo props, though, as they can give you a seriously long motor run.

By the way, for a comparison, my fuselages usually weigh 7-8 g without the front end. Not saying that Albisko isn't capable of that, as he isn't going for such low weights, but it does make an interesting comparison. As I recollect, the wing was 6-7 g, and the stab and rudder were maybe 2-3. I need to build a new wing and front end for that sucker, as both were lost in a very unfortunate flying accident last year and are sorely missed.
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Maxout
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« Reply #233 on: July 29, 2010, 11:19:14 AM »

We do need a rules discussion area...

Anyway, yeah, I'm against any change in the minimum weight. Schlosberg was indeed pushing for a 45-50 g minimum weight and got way too many behind him, IMO. It will come up again, I'm afraid.

The autosurface P-30 has little to no advantage at 40 g. 45-50g is a whole other world. Folks are saying that 4 strands of 1/8 will die with the increased minimum weight, but autosurfaces would keep it alive thanks to extra altitude from VIT/DPR, etc. I hate to impose an unnecessary ban on autosurfaces because letting folks experiment is the fun of freeflight. Raising the minimum weight would almost certainly bring that ban right on its heels, though.

If you haven't seen the ultmate P-30, here's what it looks like: http://volarlibrementerubber.blogspot.com/2010/06/rising-light-de-thurman-bowls.html

I don't know how you get a viscous damper to provide that level of precision, but that's not the point. It's a full autosurface P-30 at minimum weight, and it uses a long run motor. A 3 minute airplane at minimum...
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Ratz
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« Reply #234 on: July 29, 2010, 11:23:40 AM »

So, start a P-30 Rules discussion thread. Easy to do. Grin
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« Reply #235 on: July 29, 2010, 11:27:18 AM »

Gee, I thought the P-30 was brought about to be an entry level performance model to allow newbies to get their feet wet when it comes to competition. I think this basic rule needs to remain to allow that.

If others that are into the need for modifications and high tech materials want to petition for a P-30 advanced class, then they should do that, but please don't push out the beginners. I know you'll say that everyone needs to step up and get into the newer technology, but as I said, the P-30 rules were set to allow newcomers to learn. If they wish to progress beyond, then they can learn all the high tech stuff and get into the advanced P-30 category, if implemented. Sorry to get upset. I'll get off my soapbox. The fact is I really don't compete. Nothing in it for me. I just like to build and fly.

Caley
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Maxout
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« Reply #236 on: July 29, 2010, 11:35:30 AM »

Caley, don't worry, I agree with you. Fact is that right now, P-30 is as beginner friendly as it's gonna get, and it does that quite well. That said, there are 3 minute P-30's out there, and the proposed changes will not eliminate 3 minute P-30's, but they will make it much harder for anyone to achieve that performance, damaging the beginner friendliness of the event.

Starting next contest year, you'll be able to buy P-30's for AMA competition. That will make things interesting, IMO. Doubt it'll have much effect for the experts, though, and also none on me, since none of the current RTF P-30's have the features I want anyway.
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danberry
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« Reply #237 on: July 29, 2010, 12:51:47 PM »

3 minute P30 s in a downer are 90 second P30s.

The rules are just fine as they are. The contest board vote sorta proves it.
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albisko
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« Reply #238 on: July 29, 2010, 01:56:13 PM »

I even add a note:

we have flying weight 50g+10g and maximum time 100 seconds
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« Reply #239 on: July 29, 2010, 05:09:12 PM »

I even add a note:

we have flying weight 50g+10g and maximum time 100 seconds

This is why the heavier model is ok,(works).... for some. Increased weight + decreased max = it becomes a different event.

Otf'er....
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #240 on: July 30, 2010, 12:31:29 AM »

Incorrect. Here in Finland we increased minimum weight to 50 grams (without rubber), it did not affect the flight performance at all. We still fly with 2 min max, and the models easily do it. IMO, it does not make any observable difference to the performance whether a P-30 weight 40 or 50 grams.
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« Reply #241 on: July 30, 2010, 12:52:35 AM »

IMO, it does not make any observable difference to the performance whether a P-30 weight 40 or 50 grams.

You WILL notice a difference when a fly-off is necessary... assuming 40 gram models are allowed to compete with the 50 gram, obese models.

Guru
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« Reply #242 on: July 30, 2010, 01:08:03 AM »

Incorrect. Here in Finland we increased minimum weight to 50 grams (without rubber), it did not affect the flight performance at all. We still fly with 2 min max, and the models easily do it. IMO, it does not make any observable difference to the performance whether a P-30 weight 40 or 50 grams.

If Original rules are changed, for whatever reason (this would include any sporting event) They must be changed across the board; or we are indeed flying 2 different types of the same event. What else would call it?

Otf'er...
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #243 on: July 30, 2010, 01:51:42 AM »

IMO, it does not make any observable difference to the performance whether a P-30 weight 40 or 50 grams.

You WILL notice a difference when a fly-off is necessary... assuming 40 gram models are allowed to compete with the 50 gram, obese models.

Of course the increased weight will cut a few seconds from the flight time, but the change is too small to observe by the visual behaviour of the model. In other words, a 50 gram P-30 does not glide like a brick, but it climbs in similar fashion than a 40 gram one, and the glide seems to be unaffected. I have the same models that were built to 40 grams, and now sport 10 grams of ballast, and they fly in the same fashion than before.

Incorrect. Here in Finland we increased minimum weight to 50 grams (without rubber), it did not affect the flight performance at all. We still fly with 2 min max, and the models easily do it. IMO, it does not make any observable difference to the performance whether a P-30 weight 40 or 50 grams.

If Original rules are changed, for whatever reason (this would include any sporting event) They must be changed across the board; or we are indeed flying 2 different types of the same event. What else would call it?

Sure. What I'm saying is that in Finland we changed the rules, and we are happy with the outcome. 50 grams minimum weight is better than 40 grams.
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albisko
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« Reply #244 on: July 30, 2010, 02:59:10 AM »

I think that 40 grams is the weight for experts and not for "ordinary" pilots.

50 grams model is very compact, strong and resistant.

My second model (shorter motor stick - rainbow wing) was made for my 4 years old daughter and there is resistance requires Smiley
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danberry
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« Reply #245 on: July 30, 2010, 07:46:36 AM »

50 gm instead of 49? Naww, a 12% weight penalty won't affect it all. Wink
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« Reply #246 on: July 30, 2010, 08:46:37 AM »

I think that 40 grams is the weight for experts and not for "ordinary" pilots
50 grams model is very compact, strong and resistant

As a rank beginner, I built my first P-30 with maybe 4-5 models under my belt and zero supervision on any of them. It was ugly, made from hard balsa, and had plenty of warps and way more dope than necessary. It weighed 45 g and it flew. I'd say that's proof that any beginner with a little supervision can make a 40 g P-30 and fly it competitively. Give them a carbon spar and they don't have to care what the weather is doing either. A rolled tube fuselage adds to the durability by a wide margin...
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crashcaley
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« Reply #247 on: July 30, 2010, 09:19:14 AM »

Joshua, I agree the 40 gram mark is attainable by a beginner. My experience was much like yours. About 5 or 6 models build and then a couple of P-30's. My second ended up 36 grams, with me adding 4 grams to bring it up to weight.

Caley
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albisko
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« Reply #248 on: July 30, 2010, 09:27:17 AM »

I respect your rules.

Personally, I would also 40gr min.weight but rules .....
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applehoney
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« Reply #249 on: July 30, 2010, 10:03:15 AM »

Quote
50 gm instead of 49? Naww, a 12% weight penalty won't affect it all.

Actually ... to 50gm from 40 gm is a 25% basic weight increase. I respect Tapio's observations that it didn't make much difference in practice even though a higher wing loading/lower power ratio would suggest otherwise.

I aso agree that 40 gms is not an 'expert's class' - it's quite easily attainable. I build with 'stock' wood, nothing special and usually come out at about the correct weight, sometimes needing an extra gm or two of ballast .. sometimes not.

Throughout all my decades of involvement in modelling my credo has been 'add lightness'. Lighter models do fly better than equivalent heavy one. To add 10 gms to a P30, whether in unnecessary structure (present P30's are adequately strong) and/or ballast, turns me away completely. The present rules have been fine since inception and should remain unchanged .. other than maybe a ban on any in-flight movable surfaces.
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