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Author Topic: Couple questions on my first build of a ON 28  (Read 2324 times)
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Victor
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« on: October 17, 2011, 10:24:15 PM »

hello everyone.  I'm a novice, at least from a "knowing what I'm doing" perspective, with balsa/tissue models. Various beginner level stuff with control line as a young kid, tried a couple peanut scale planes and a small Guillow balsa/tissue; then a few tries at two channel RC; everything crashes, and balsa/tissue models didn't fly...  Now, three decades later, I'm back to trying the hobby again, specifically free flight balsa/tissue rubber powered models.  I've got Ross' "Rubber Powered Model Airplanes" and have read through a lot of this forum, and realize I had started wrong back then, trying to do Peanuts/scale without knowing the basics of construction, balance, trim, etc.

So this time I started with a Peck Polymers ROG, which seems to fly fine (first of anything I've built that flew like it was supposed to).  Now I'm trying a ON 28.  I've built the stab and rudder, and am almost done with the fuse.  At the moment I just have two questions, which are probably so basic I haven't seen them discussed in the P30 threads.  First, is the leading/trailing edges of the stab, and the leading/trailing edges of the rudder, left square, or rounded, or sanded elliptical, prior to covering?

Second, I'll be starting the wing shortly; it isn't clear to me if you build it with the dihedral on the board, just gluing the leading/trailing edges and ribs, and then add the stringers later, or do you add stringers while the wing is flat, then cut and trim for the dihedral?

thanks,
Victor
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Sailaway
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2011, 05:43:53 AM »

Hi Victor, Welcome to FF and specially the ON28. There are many experts here who helped me tremendously and will do the same for you. I started out a couple years ago exactly where you are today, RC, Don Ross book, ON 28. For your fist plane I would stick with the profiles shown on the plans. I had kept the the LE and TE of tail and rudder square. As far as the dihedral goes you should cut the stringers in such a way that they over lap at the central rib at dihedral break. Also, ever so slowly and witha  light hand sand a miter cut at wing LE and TE so as to form a good strong and even joint.

Practice building light and square. For the first plane no wash outs are needed . If you build per plans, it flies great. Other thing you must learn now ( ask me how I know?) put a Wing OFF DT even on your first plane. I lost a  few ON28. Post pictures as you go along and welcome to FF.
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2011, 07:43:13 AM »

Hello Victor...the P-30 Class of rubber for me is one of the most enjoyable classes to fly. I follow the airfoil shape and sand the leading edge and trailing edge to match the airfoil. Let me back up though...I build the wind and stab in one piece if possible....then I cut the area where the dihedral goes..I block up the area to the desired angle and then sand to match the pieces together making a good joint. I then glue them together and after it's dry I careful put in my spars and stringers. Of course I reinforce the joints...I wrap them with some thin fiber glass cloth or silk.
 With P-30's you'll want to learn to build light but with strenght in the right places.
 For your next P-30 I would suggest you build the Majestyk...it's a fine flying plane and easy to build. If you need more help give me a shout!
 Craig h
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Victor
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2011, 09:07:56 PM »

Craig, Sailaway;

Thanks for the advice and tips.  I'll post some pictures shortly.  Sailaway, I read your adventures, so I'll take the DT issue seriously.  I've ordered a button DT and dope, and extra tissue (so the model is not all one color), so I think I have all the gear I need to build the model.

Victor
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Victor
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2011, 10:33:38 PM »

Here's a pic of what I've got done so far.  I have a digital scale somewhere I'll have to dig out. 
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Sailaway
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2011, 06:24:03 PM »

hi Victor, Good photo. You are building well. I cannot comment on Dope as I use Polyurethane spray. Multi color tissue is good helps in retrieving too. Get a good winder, but I have the 5 to 1 plastic Peck Polymer winder for so may years it has been good to me. As you progress invest in good rubber from FAI. You will need a stooge. For ON 16 I use a coat hanger behind the car trunk lock. But for ON 28 I have a  home made job too. Will take a photo , it is crude, simple but home made. What glue are you using ? I use Titebond II as Duco Cement is a bit allergic to me. Button timer is good too. For Tissue covering use the UHU glue stick . Goes on purple but dries clear. Purple color tells you where you missed the glue. With the stick glue, one tends easily to lather it. Resist that temptation. As Craig said, Light & strong. Also on an off note, there are quite a few good P-30 out there. My reason for building many ON 28 was to learn from each one and make the it better the next time, practice. This way I am confident of what old mistakes not to make and learn the new ones I create.

Keep us posted. Want to see how you make out. I am sure you will love it.


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Victor
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2011, 10:19:32 PM »

Sailaway,
Thanks for all the tips.  I'm using Titebond II glue.  I haven't tried the UHU for the tissue, I've used titebond/water half and half before, not sure if that is the smoothest way to do things or not.  I'm almost done with the fuse, but I think I'll take pictures once it is covered...people might interpret the various warps in the frame as construction errors, not realizing that I'm actually pre-stressing the balsa, so that the shrinking tissue will warp everything back perfectly into alignment.

Victor
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Victor
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« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2011, 07:13:24 PM »

Well, I'm about done with the balsa piece.  I had some challenges with the wing dihedral, there are now some additional gussets; but it seems to be straight and relatively flat, we'll see.

I have some Esaki tissue, and picked up some rubbing alcohol and recycled a perfume sprayer for wetting down the tissue.  I'm going to start covering, trying Maize and Blue.

Sunday, while waiting for some gluing to dry, I got the ROG out and tried it in the common area where I live.  400 winds got me a nice hammerhead stall, up around 50 feet, but it recovered to go up a little more, for a 45 second flight.  I'm looking forward to giving the ON28 a try, hopefully within a couple weeks.
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Victor
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« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2011, 07:18:00 PM »

I weighed the pieces, here is what I have so far:

rudder  .90 gm
stab   1.75 gm
fuse   8.91 gm
wing  9.74 gm

total  21.30 gm

only the balsa plus the plastic nose insert
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Victor
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2011, 06:19:45 PM »

I've covered the ON28, but haven't yet shrunk the tissue or done the doping.  I left the rear of the fuse uncovered, I'm still not fully confident on how it all gets done right - the rubber band hold downs, shims to adjust decalage and stab tilt, etc.  so I figured I would leave it uncovered so I could make lots of adjustments, and once I think I have it figured out, I can cover it. 

I did have one question, about the rudder...I left the bottom of the rudder uncovered, I assume I just glue it to the stab?  I wasn't sure if that was very sturdy, or if some people pin the rudder to the stab, or some other technique.  I assume you take off a thin strip of the tissue on the stab, for a direct balsa to balsa glue joint?  Here are a couple pics of what it is looking like.

Victor
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Victor
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2011, 10:31:31 PM »

Here are a couple pictures of something I haven't seen before.  When I sprayed the tissue, it looks like some of it stuck together, but didn't separate as the tissue dried.  There are three spots like this on the stab and one on the rudder, even though the rudder didn't have any wrinkles before I misted it, and I wondered if it was necessary to shrink the tissue if there weren't any wrinkles, but decided it might be needed for tension, anyways.
Not sure if those spots cause any problems?
I  put magnets under the edges of parts, and magnets along the top edge, to keep everything flat as it dried.

The weights now are:
fuse     10.56
wing     12.75
stab       2.75
rudder    1.25
total     27.31 gm

I learned some things - I think I should have covered the wingtips first, then the center section, as the center section tissue can drape straight, while the wingtips tissue drapes elliptical in the center; also, should have done the underside first, so the tissue on top can cover the seam.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2011, 11:33:58 PM »

Victor, Welcome back to the hobby.  You've done a great job on the ON28, which was also my very first P-30.
  You provided thoughts about covering.  Cover the bottom of the stab and wing first, then the top.  Not really sure there is a specific sequence for the top.  I generally work out from the center.
  The weight you are giving is really low for a P-30.  Is this also counting the nose block and prop/prop shaft?  One reason I ask is that if you do fly the P-30 in competition, minimum weight without rubber is 40 grams.  The rubber motor is a maximum of 10 grams with lube.  If you're just going to fly sport (fun), then I wouldn't worry about the weight.
  In you're Rog flight, you described a hammer head.  Does that mean that it went up really steeply and then nosed over, and then recovered?  If that is what happened, you had a power stall.  That can be cured by adding eigher a little down or right thrust, or possibly a combination of both.  Make one adjustment at a time so you stay away from causing other problems.  And make small adjustments when you make them.
  You'll find plenty of help here on HPA.  Just ask if something is confusing.  Give us a description of what is happening, and I am sure someone here will have the cure.  Caley
 
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2011, 11:59:04 PM »

Victor,

You're doing great work.  I don't know the best way to overcome the issue you have on the stab and rudder.  The issue is worse when you dope it--then it really sticks together!  When I re-built my stab, I doubled the number of ribs, just using 1/32 sheet ribs for the additional ones, to avoid the sticking problem.

One suggestion for after you are done:  Make sure you store the stab and rudder between some flat items.  Hard foam, or foamcore sheets works well.  I use a couple of pieces of 1/8 foamcore.  Thicker would be even better, but I think the 1/8 is adequate.  They just need to be held flat, otherwise they can warp just with changes in humidity.  I think this is particularly an issue with thinner (i.e. non-airfoiled) shapes such as the tail surfaces on a ON28.

The workmanship looks good and the weights are fine.  The plane will fly great if you can keep the surfaces straight.

I noticed that you prepared to use either peg location.  I'd certainly use the aft peg.  That will allow you to use 3 loops of 1/8, which is more rubber cross section than many P30 flyers are using.  Other than adding a bit of weight further aft, the plane should be easier to trim with this peg location than if you tried to use the forward peg location and the full 10 grams (4 loops of 1/8 ?) of rubber--which would mean more initial torque and power.

--Bill
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2011, 04:03:40 AM »

Your ON looks good!
For the tissue that's stuck together, you can try poking a pin hole in the corner of the bay and gently blow air into the space. Either with your mouth or very carefully with canned air.

Looks like flying is going to happen very soon. Can I suggest you get some help trimming and also winding? Here, in SoCal, I was very fortunate to have some of the locals help and it really ramped up the learning curve!

- Norm Furutani




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Victor
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2011, 08:37:32 PM »

Thanks everyone for all the helpful tips.  Caley, I've learned a lot reading through your various threads on your P30 builds, and the trimming questions.  I also picked up the Free Flight Quarterly P30 Survey, which has helped me understand some of this a bit better.  Regarding my ROG, it would climb steeply, ending up vertical, hanging on the prop, then sliding back down, and flipping over and recovering back to a climb.  But since it has a plastic prop hanger that isn't adjustable, I would have to do some cutting and gluing to adjust the prop thrust.  I tried adding right rudder, via that little paper trim tab, but it only seemed to be effective during glide; it doesn't seem to affect the power phase.  But I'm not going to spend much time with the ROG, I just wanted to start with something before trying the ON28, and see if I could get something to fly.

I don't personally know anyone who does this stick and tissue model building, but I'm in the Northern Virginia area, and there is a club in DC that has members in the area, so that is one way to get to meet some people in this hobby.  I also see where there is an Eastern US meet coming up in November in Maryland; that isn't very far from here either.  I'm hoping to get out there for one or two of the days and see some of these models in action.  I've only ever seen these things in magazines or on the Internet.

Caley, regarding the weight of the ON28, I didn't include the prop, dowel, rubber hook wire, or the sub rudders.  Those total 7.56 gms, bringing my total weight, with no dope yet, up to about 36 grams.  We'll see how much the doping adds to the total; from what I've read, it looks like that would bring it up over 40.
I've already taken Craig's advice, and ordered a Majestyk for my next effort; but I'm going to focus on trying to get the ON28 flying within a week.

Victor
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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2011, 09:15:00 PM »

Victor, Really sounds like you did your homework.    As to the ROG, that is a power stall.  Looking from the top at the nose, I sand on the left side an angle , then glue a 1/16 shim on that angle.  What that does is make the slip on plastic hanger point more to the right, creating right thrust, which usually is enough to get things flying fairly well in a right hand circle.  You just have to play with the angle a bit to find the sweet spot.  Yes, the trim tab for a rudder is useful for directing the model in the direction you wish it to glide.  But from what I've been told, it also has an effect on the power portion of the flight.  The ROG is a good way to learn basic trimming techniques, so don't give up on that.  Try things and see what happens.  Those experiments will transfer to your bigger models. 
  I sure hope you can connect with someone in your area.  I am sure there is someone nearby that you can get together with occasionally.  I found a club about 70 miles from where I live, and try to get there as mush as my budget allows.  I've learned a lot from those who fly there, and best of all, get to visit and yak with others with the same interests.  There are also clubs that put on events in your area, I am sure.  Just need someone to help you make the contacts.
  Your weight on the ON28 is great.  Always nice that you can tweak the weight to get it up to minimum.  I did that with my NJAPF P-30 which turned out weightwise about the same.  O ended up using some brass rod weight friction fitted into the nose block.  And good for you.  The Majestyk is a greak flyer, and I believe can attain 2 minutes in calm air every time if trimmed and rubber wound properly.  I consistently get very close to 2 minutes each time I fly it.  If you don't know, the Majestyk has an undercambered wing.  Not difficult to cover, just takes a bit of patience.  Caley
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« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2011, 09:45:23 PM »

Victor
Your ON28 looks good . Should be a good flyer. I live in
southern PA and have flown in the Ingleside MD meets several
times. By all means go to it if you can. The majestyk you got is
a very good P-30. So is the Square Eagle which is now again
available through Shorty's Basement. Good luck.

Charlie Coeyman
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« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2011, 11:49:38 PM »

Here's a list of all the FF Clubs in the USA. Click http://freeflight.org/community/FreeFlightClubs/index.htm. There's three listed for Virginia. The group putting on the contest is probably the DC Maxecuters. This is also a link to the NFFS web site and there is lots of good info there. Also, I think there is still a special on NFFS membership.

Charlie mentioned the New Square Eagle, the original is one of the all-time best P-30 kits/designs. Hopefully the new kit is as good or better! The Majestyk  is a record breaker (literally) but as Caley hinted, a bit more of a challenge to build.

- Norm
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2011, 09:45:24 AM »

Your coming along well Victor..with more building you will only get better. Glad to hear you obtain a Majestyk..you will be happy with it...it's not all that difficult to build..and the covering of it will help your building  skills. Now you will start to build on your skill of trimming..most of these planes will take down and right thrust..just add 1/64 or 1/32 shims to the front but with the same number to motor turns until it starts to fly more correctly..then gradually add more turns and readjust by adding or deleting shims. Also you may have to adjust your stab up or down with shims to obtain the proper glide as you go.
 Whatever you do...do one(1) adjustment at a time..before adding more turns in the motor...that's all part of the fun..getting it to fly proper.
 Have Fun
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2011, 01:16:09 PM »

Victor
I have no argument with other advice that you have received but in aeromodelling there are usually several different ways of doing things so here are a couple.

On the matter of the tissue sticking together on 'flat plate' tail surfaces; I wet one side and leave it to dry with the wet side underneath.  The framework edges are supported to keep the wet side off the workbench.  The wet side of course hangs down away from the dry side.  As soon as the wet side is dry enough not to sag too much wet the other surface and place the newly wet surface on the bottom.  Now weight the item down and leave to dry thoroughly.  You should have no problems with the sides sticking together or with warping.

As far as wing building is concerned I can't ever remember building a wing flat and then cutting for dihedral.  I build inner panels first (usually omitting the end ribs),  then fix them to the board at the correct dihedral and build the outer panels directly onto the end of the inner panels, lastly fix the joint ribs.  Perhaps I should mention that I almost always design my own aeroplanes and usually design wings with a main spar.  I then make the mainspar first (over a front view) with the correct dihedral incorporated.  This automatically gets the dihedral correct as the various panels are built.

John
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Victor
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2011, 09:20:34 PM »

Thanks for all the additional comments.  I tried to sign up for NFFS, but it wasn't working for me; I'm going to try again.

John, I'll get a chance to try your advice on avoiding the problem of the tissue sticking, since I just found out after my second coat of dope that the stab did a little pretzel trick.  I'm not sure if those three spots weakened the ability of the stab to resist serious warping when the dope dries, or if I had some weak joints there.

Either way, luckily I had purchased two ON28 kits, figuring some back up parts might be useful.  So I made another stab tonight, and added gussets at the center, using scrap 3/32", as I think that is the weakest spot, the split vertical support, at least that is where mine seemed to buckle the most. I also added four additional 3/32" square pieces to fill in the wider areas, and used the lightest wood.  

Tomorrow I'll cover it, using John's advice about spraying one side, and giving it a couple minutes before spraying the other side.  The 50/50 alcohol/water mix seems to dry quite fast, so that should be a quick way to avoid having the sags clump the tissue.  I can also use that opportunity to patch the hole in the rudder, from where the "dope" doped a magnet to the tissue.

Fortunately, the wing seems to be pretty flat, as well as the rudder and the fuse, so I'm getting close.   I'm anxious to start the flight testing.
Here's a pic of my modified stab:
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Victor
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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2011, 09:26:53 PM »

I now have the third coat of 50/50 on everything except the new stab, which has one coat of dope at this stage.  Here are my weights:
wing      14.75
stab        4.50
rudder     1.41
fuse       18.20 (including nose block, prop, prop wire)
total:    38.86 gms  
I still need to install the wing hold down hooks, plus rubber band tie downs, plus the DT thing, which I need to figure out, so it will end up a little over 40.  
That new stab is nice and flat, but it weighs  1.25 grams more than the old one.  I think I made a mistake in selecting hard balsa for all the pieces; I think only the two one-piece span wise 3/32" sq. needed to be stiff; the rest of the stringers are relatively short, and the failure was in the glue joint, not in balsa bending.  So the gussets in the middle was probably the more important solution, not using heavy pieces for everthing else.  At this weight now, I was planning on leaving the sub rudders off, that will save half a gram in the tail of the plane.  We'll see.
Here's a pic of the new stab; I ran out of blue tissue, so I used black for half of it.  Not really symmetrical, but we'll see how it flies.  The Majestyk came in the mail, so I have another project in the wings now.
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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2011, 10:13:25 PM »

Victor, You are doing very good.  My first ON28 ended up at about 55 grams as I remember, and it still flew pretty well.  Yours should do just fine.  Use it as a trainer to learn trimming in preparation for your next P-30, the Majestyk.
  I don't know if you've done rubber powered before, but one key is how to wind the rubber motor and a few other things.
  1.  Always use a blast tube when winding your motor.  If you don't and the motor gives way, all that work on your fuselage will be done in, or the very least some upright/crosspieces and tissue work.  If you need help in this area, just ask and we will provide what we know.
  2.  To help you get the most out of your rubber motor, use a lubricant.  There are many kinds, but the two most common are a soapy type, though I am not familiar with the formula to make it.  I believe it can be obtained from Campbell's Custom Kits  http://campbellscustomkits.com/  The other is a silicone type of lubricant.  I will let the experts recommend things.  I have a bottle of stuff I got from http://starlink-flitetech.com/ that Larry sells.  It has lasted me quite a long time and works very well.
  3.  The last is that you need to learn how to wind a rubber motor properly to get the most turns out of it without breaking.  Again, that I leave to the experts.  I generally can get about 1025-1050 or so turns on six strands of 1/8 rubber that is 10 grams in weight, including the lubricant.  Some say they can get over 1100 turns on the same motor, so I still have a lot to learn to get to that point.
  I'm sure there are other things I have forgotten.  But as suggested earlier, take the model trimming process one step and change at a time to prevent rekitting your model.  Always start at low power testing, and as you get a problem worked out, go up slowly on your turn count, making the required adjustments until you reach your goal, a stable model under power, and good transition and glide.
  Sorry for the long winded dissertation.  Hopefully all is helpful.  We wish you to succeed.  Caley
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2011, 09:18:51 AM »

Caley,
Thanks for all your help.  At this stage I don't have a winder, or a stooge yet.  I did pick up a bottle of lube.  So I'm planning on focusing on learning trimming, and keeping the winds under around 400.  I'm thinking I'll do a wing-off DT, once I know where to place the wing. 

I'm going to have to research building a stooge, and getting a winder - and then I'll have to replace the rear dowel with an aluminum tube.

I'll post a picture once I figure out the hold-downs for the wing and the tail, and I have it all together.

Victor
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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2011, 05:39:39 PM »

Victor, Hope what I pass on will be useful.  A homemade winding stooge is very easy to build.  Just go to the Home Depot or other similar store and find a nice straight, strong piece of 1x4x 4 ft  pine.  They may even have scraps of wood for free if you ask.  You cut a base board about 2 feet long and two sices about 6 inches long.  You probably can get by with cutting one side and splitting it into two 2 inch wide pieces.  Round off the top for esthetics. and drill a hole through both.  Glue ans screw the sides onto the back of the base on opposing sides.  Cut two more pieces 4x4 and drill a 3/4 inch hole into them both in the center.  Glue and screw them go the bottom of the base board.  Purchase a 3/4 inch dowel.  Put a heavy nail in one end.  That end will go into the ground the othe other into the hole you just drilled.  Put two eyelet screws at the back of the stooge to hold the guy lines.  Put another about 1/3rd of the way up the 3/4 inch dowel to hold the front guy line.  Puchase some of those big nails that are about 9 inches long and about 1/4 inch in diameter to pound into the ground to hold things.  You might want to figure some kind of cross piece to put at the top of the nails to hold the guys to keep the guys from slipping over the nail.  That shouldn't happen, but could,  I would use red coloured rope and paint the nail cross pieces red so that you can see those to prevent you or someone tripping over the contraption.  Only other thing you'll need is a rest on top of the base board that you can move back and forth to support your model.  Foam can work well for this purpose, or you could rout out a channel through your base board that you can slide a bolt through that screws into a support board that is covered by foam,  Depends on how mancy you want things.  I built something like this and it worked very well.
  As for a winder, that is something you need to research carefully as to where you are going in our hobby.  If you are just going to use a few strands of 1/8 rubber or less, then a basic 5:1 or 15:1 winder will work.  But if you are serious about flying P-30s and larger models, then you need a more stout winder, which is a big investment.  I was fortunate and kinda got adopted by those here on the internet and at my club, and received two very nice winders, a Gizmo Geezer 5:1 and Sidewinder 1:3.75, both of which are fantastic. 
  Making a winder from a regular hand drill can be done, but it is not as strong as you think it might be, as the difference is that regular winders get pressure put atop them to do theier job, and winders need to be strong enough to not pull apart from the torque put on it by a rubber motor.  I'm sure someone out here can advise you as to what mods you need to make to a hand drill so that it will be safe to use for winding rubber.
  Getting aluminum tubes for rear motor pegs is nice because you can put the wire through the tube and through the two holes in your winding stooge, whereas I figure you need a human stooge to hold your model with a dowel.  Don't know if you have a local hobby shop,  If not, let me know your mailing address, and I will send you some aluminum tube of various diameters to get you started.  3/32 to 1/8 diamter should be enough for your ON28.
  Once you get the rear motor peg done, then CG your model with rubber inside the model,  Then you are ready for low power tests.  300 turns on the motor should be ok to start.  That should be enough turns to keep it in the air for about one circuit under power, and then into the glide.  Just launch your model, stand right where you launched it, and watch carefully what it does.  If you cannot figure out what to do to correct something you see, come back here, describe what happened, and we'll help you out.  Again, enough info to chew on.  Hope it helps.  Caley
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What's stall speed?  Undecided
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